<p>My S is attending his second semester at Carnegie Mellon. Officially he's a freshman, a school policy based on that first year thing, but when he was admitted they accepted enough hours (credits at CMU) to qualify him as a junior. By the end of his first semester there he has enough to be a senior. He won't graduate until 2008 given his major requirements, but he's pretty much completed his required courses and has most of his electives.</p>
<p>The only real problem we anticipated this raising is that he registers for classes as a freshman, dead last. Fortunately that hasn't turned out to be a problem with his major so far because they reserve so many seats students from the major. The problem is his minor where he doesn't qualify for a reserved seat The best he could manage was to get high on the waitlist for a couple of classes.</p>
<p>This morning he received an email telling him that he wouldn't be admitted to one of the classes in his minor he's wait listed for because he's only a freshman. I advised him to talk to the advisor who sent the email and explain his situation, but he's convinced from the tone of it that she won't budge.</p>
<p>It's bad enough that this kind of thing looks like it could ruin his plans to graduate when he expected; to add insult to injury, he's forced to take a light load that at CMU costs as much as if he were taking twice as many classes. There are only so many classes he can safely take in his major, particularly the heavy project ones, without running the risk of killing himself.</p>
<p>Darned if I know what to do about it. Any suggestions?</p>
<p>Your son isn't strategizing..........who is advising him? Firstly he needs to sign up for multiple majors......thus eliminating the problem of getting into a restricted class. Secondly: I have no idea what his major is as you didn't divulge that to us.</p>
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He won't graduate until 2008 given his major requirements, but he's pretty much completed his required courses and has most of his electives.
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<p>You or your son need to clarify for yourself what the difference btwn degree requirements and "required courses" is. While I understand your predicament as presented it makes NO sense. Your son's best remedy if he is this accelerated is to submatriculate into a graduate program and still graduate on time.</p>
<p>Sounds like a wonderful opportunity for your son to stop and smell the roses by taking a course for no purpose except the fun of exploring some new and interesting area.</p>
<p>My thought exactly, or something that might help him along in new ways. Assuming he is some kind of CS/engineering major (which I don't know), this is a great opportunity to take a course or two in business management, writing and presentation skills, conflict management, foreign languages, world religions, or just something that might expand his enjoyment of life (music appreciation, art history, Russian novels).</p>
<p>yes - if your son is going to graduate in 3 years, as i understand it, he still has plenty of time to take classes that he's just randomly interested in - "hmm, i dont know very much about latin america, why dont i take a class on it?" or "hmm i always wondered what the appeal of buddhism was, let me find out by taking this class." taking classes out of his major will make him more interesting and well-rounded, and will give him different perspectives on his major, thereby helping him in the long run. </p>
<p>another option is that he could declare his minor as a major, allowing him to take classes in the minor now, and then drop the major later.</p>
<p>carnegie mellon doesnt sound like it has very good advising, or else your son is not taking advantage of it.</p>
<p>Having advanced standing and meeting the requirements for a degree are two different discussions. Me thinks that if the student doesn't get it and Dad is paying that someone needs to determine the facts. Once the facts are determined then student can make some informed decisions. </p>
<p>I cannot speak to the quality of advising at CMU but I know that many new students don't know how to work with their adviser nor to communicate w/ same and thus end up missing out on opportunities. At most schools an advisor has some expectation that a student will learn the requirements and put forth some effort.</p>
<p>My hunch is that the restriction isn't being imposed by the advisor but rather by the prereqs established for the course itself. At my university, when there is such a prereq it's often possible to get an override into the course by getting the instructor's permission. That would seem to me to be the logical step to take. The student has to show that he is prepared for the course, and the instructor isn't obligated to enroll him.</p>
<p>Something else to consider. In the grand scheme of life, getting waitlisted out of a course during your first year of college would rank pretty low on disaster scale. Probably ranks somewhere in there with chipping a finger nail. </p>
<p>I think the best response by a parent is to encourage the kid to just shrug it off and go with plan B. First year of college is too early to have every semester planned out to a "T", anyway. Leave a little room for serendipity.</p>
<p>For next year's parents and first year students, I recommend curling up with the course guide over the summer and coming up with three or four "that would be interesting" courses to stick in your back pocket, so that it's easy to plug one into the program when (not IF) you get waitlisted out of a course.</p>
<p>I am not sure that gaining advanced standing means the student has met the burden: one must usually provide an exam score or take an exam in the department. As to getting instructor permission, I agree that this student hasn't asked, doesn't know to ask, doesn't know how to ask.......all of this could have and should have been explained by an advisor. </p>
<p>These are all things that should be self evident in the department and academic rules......easily read online by parent, student and others.</p>
<p>We're all over his advisor. His class rank is set by documented school policy. What it will take him to graduate is mapped out with alternatives and multiple variations to meet different scenarios. It's not like we're novices at this, particularly given what I do for a living.</p>
<p>He's reasonably content to "stop and smell the roses", but he understands the issues with getting into classes he needs in both his major and his minor and the importance of timing. He isn't allowed to declare multiple majors as a freshman, btw.</p>
<p>The issue is that he realizes he can't get all the courses in his minor if they aren't going to give a little and at least acknowledge the number of credits he has justifies waiving the class level requirements when there are seats in a class. He will literally never be a junior (when you're within so many hours of graduating you automatically become a senior) and there's no way he can get in all the upper level requirements if can't take any courses until that last year.</p>
<p>And adding a year means he probably can afford to finish at CMU, not with their tuition. That's the real rub.</p>
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**It's not like we're novices at this, particularly given what I do for a living.
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<p>so basically you need to find another school, who will be more friendly to your specific situation. Apparently since you are in the biz and are more than astute you had this all researched and took the offer from CMU anyway?
I don't really understand any of the taking a lighter load. At what point is he allowed to register for a joing program if his rank is dictated by policy? I mean they do have submatric at CMU.</p>
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**he realizes he can't get all the courses in his minor if they aren't going to give a little and at least acknowledge the number of credits he has justifies waiving the class level requirements when there are seats in a class.
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<p>I don't quite understand your comment re: class level requirements. Call me obtuse.</p>
<p>apprently not as a Freshman??? This is all becoming amusing in the sense that it points out how litte research students do when they are applying to a school and before they accept that coveted offer. </p>
<p>How much money did this student accept from CMU to woo him to this flexible and supportive program? If you student has major OPM[other people's money] and can pick up some research to take up his extra time then this could be salvaged. If you are paying full freight you need to find a better school for your son.</p>
<p>CMU is well known for the fact that admission is to a college/school and not only to the university. Students looking for a side-door entry into courses in a given college/school without having been admitted to that school often find themselves blocked. Nonetheless, CMU does promote the idea that students can have minors outside of their college. Had my daughter enrolled at CMU (she was admitted there), she was considering having a minor in business along with her major in art; and she was told this would be possible.</p>
<p>In the case of this student, it seems to me that the student is running up against CMU's rules designed to avoid side-door entry to courses in a college to which the student wasn't actually admitted (designed to discourage students themselves from doing a kind of bait-and-switch of their own). But since CMU does say that students can have minors outside their college, this student is being obstructed only because he's trying to start his minor early. To me, that's not fair at all, and the student shouldn't be obstructed simply because he's a frosh if in fact he would be permitted to take the same course outside his college in a year or two later. However, my judgment here is contingent on whether in fact he's prepared to take that course in his expected minor. And that's another reason why I think an appeal to the instructor of that course may be a logical step to take.</p>
<p>"so basically you need to find another school"</p>
<p>Nope, I'm in the planning business. And the "written policy" was unexpected and not exactly publicly available. It's certainly not in their catalog or on their websites. But it's in writing.</p>
<p>Class level requirements. You have to be a junior or senior to register for a particular upper level class.</p>
<p>CMU accepts entering freshman into specific schools which effectively restricts majors. He can't declare a double major until he's a junior (which he'll never be :D).</p>
<p>so basically you are up for the challenge and like the fact that the game is on. hehehe.......</p>
<p>Would you mind sharing the money question? I am always curious whether service is better to those paying as opposed to those on OPM. Just wanting to evaluate the school not you personally.</p>
<p>mackinaw=
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And that's another reason why I think an appeal to the instructor of that course may be a logical step to take.
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<p>what? why would any faculty member want to take on this battle when it makes their work load so much less????</p>
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Would you mind sharing the money question? I am always curious whether service is better to those paying as opposed to those on OPM. Just wanting to evaluate the school not you personally.
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<p>No, the service isn't particularly better. They're all just those obnoxioius students that make working for a university such a pain. ;) </p>
<p>And as advertised, CMU's food is among the worst, no matter what you pay.</p>
<p>Obviously not up to the challenge, btw, or we wouldn't be thinking ahead to where he might have to transfer to next year.</p>
<p>My advice was to go to the minor advisor to speak to her personally and explain the situtation. Make big eyes, puts some gentle guilt on, at least understand what they're thinking and what they're willing to do. Better than to a reply to her email.</p>
<p>Thanks. I think that many times folks on CC hold the belief that service is better in First Class as it were. Always nice to know these things. </p>
<p>I guess you are now also looking for schools that won't cause this problem for your son next year? </p>
<p>I think you are very wise to move on to another school as soon as you can get your son to do so.</p>
<p>Do you read PMs???</p>
<p>I don't understand what this has to do with serving your son?
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**at least understand what they're thinking and what they're willing to do
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what? why would any faculty member want to take on this battle when it makes their work load so much less????
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You're far too cynical. I'm a faculty member. If a student comes to me and persuades me that she really interested in enrolling in my course, and that she's ready for it, well frankly I "outrank" the advisors and can grant permission for the student to enroll. Or at the very least I can become an advocate for the student's effort to get special consideration. I'm also well aware of how course prereqs work. If they say "Junior Standing or Permission of Instructor" then it's clear I can override. If they say "Junior Standing and Major in X" I might still be able to override or intervene on the student's behalf.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to minimize my work (nor, obviously to increase it), but if a student has a good case, and the course isn't totally overflowing, I will take her on board.</p>
<p>I am not that cynical really. I am however aware that any faculty member swimming upstream against school policy must be up for the game. You sound like you are up for the game.........you would take a student and then how do you get this past the department head and the committee? Just curious.</p>