<p>My question is not whether they are good but rather whether the required courses only serve the nearly ready to graduate........can you see what I mean. If they are awarding 60 degrees and the spots are 30 in the class then one is very limited as getting into the course.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We're all over his advisor. ... It's not like we're novices at this, particularly given what I do for a living.
[/quote]
[quote]
I advised him to talk to the advisor who sent the email and explain his situation, but he's convinced from the tone of it that she won't budge.
[/quote]
Reading between the lines here, but is sounds like this is a case of a parent who likes to have things all planned out, down to the last detail... and a kid who isn't quite going along with the parental program. My experience after 22 years of parenting is that when I make a suggestion to one of my kids as to how to deal with a problem, and the kid tells me it won't work... that often is the kid's way of saying no. Sometimes the kid is conflicted, doesn't quite know what he wants. But when either of my kids has got their heart set on something, then they figure out on their own not to take a "no" answer passively. No parental urging needed.</p>
<p>So, my first take is: this is the son's problem, not the parent's. If the son can't fix it, he will neede to change plans and adjust. Happens to us all. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Class level requirements. You have to be a junior or senior to register for a particular upper level class.
[/quote]
[quote]
The only thing remotely mitigating against spending another year at the school when you could complete your degree without it is $43,000.
[/quote]
In this case, the son happens to be a freshman. You can paint it any way you want, but CMU apparently has a policy of not granting advanced standing to incoming students, no matter how much credit they transfer in with. I think you probably knew that coming in, and now are feeling frustrated with the limitations that come with being a freshman.</p>
<p>Hate to say it, but this looks like a case of poor planning to me -- this is a student (or parent?) who wanted to have the benefit of advanced standing that comes with accumulated college credit, but elected to apply to a private college as a freshman rather than apply to a different college as a transfer. Somewhere along the line you assumed that your son would be able to take a short-cut path to graduation, without considering the limits of his freshman status. Private colleges, especially, like to have their tuition dollars, and tend not to be too flexible in granting short cuts. From the comments about the light load for spring costing as much as a heavy course load, it appears that CMU is one of those colleges that does not impose extra fees on students who want to take extra units -- the flip side of that very generous policy may be that CMU isn't going to make it all that easy to shave off a year in the path to graduation. </p>
<p>That being said, I still think that if this kid really wanted the course as badly as the parent seems to want him to have it, then he'd go the extra mile in terms of trying to schedule it. </p>
<p>Way back when I was just shy of my 17th birthday, I was a freshman in college and decided that I wanted to enroll in an upper division course. I was at a huge public university; I was relying on AP credit to meet the course prerequisite. I needed permission of the prof to do that, and I remember going to her office and meeting with her. She didn't want me in her class. I argued and wheedled; I got in to the course. I didn't need parental support or advice to figure that out. And, odd as it seems today, I was actually a rather shy kid - making an appointment to talk to an elderly prof was not exactly my cup of tea. </p>
<p>So basically... my conclusion is this falls in the category of normal, typical, first year college experience that most kids should be able to handle on their own. (As other posters have already pointed out, the issue of difficulty getting into desired classes is one that happens everywhere)</p>
<p>I'd argue what we see so far is that the other department protects its majors and they enforce class level requirements. Nothing particularly sinister about that, just a problem for us if they aren't flexible.</p>
<p>Here's the crux of the problem. You son has chosen a interdisciplinary major that requires 37 semester-courses instead of the standard 32 semester-courses that would be required for most college majors. Basically, it's the workload of a 4.5 year college career. But, he is trying to do it in three years.</p>
<p>IMO, that is going to be a very difficult challenge, both from a scheduling and a workload standpoint. Those types of majors, with extensive requirements across many different departments (the major plus math, plus sciences, plus engineering plus the minor plus the humanities requirements), always present serious scheduling difficulties, even working in a normal 4 year sequence. </p>
<p>Unless he is just "acing" every course he's taking without breaking a sweat and happy as a clam, I would be concerned about the feasibility of compressed time-frame for that major. Even if the sun and moon and the stars aligned perfectly on course scheduling, is this really a desireable plan? I don't think college should be a Bataan Death March.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You son has chosen a interdisciplinary major that requires 37 semester-courses instead of the standard 32 semester-courses that would be required for most college majors.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's just the basic BS in Computer Science, interesteddad, not anything particularly interdisciplinary. It has the usual humanities and breadth requirements, of course. I don't have the his planning spreadsheet with me, but it was only a 4 year program. </p>
<p>And even if it was a 4.5 year program, does that matter when you start with two full years credit your first day of classes? He took a pretty heavy load in high school, so he had a lot of transfer hours. That was before CMU waived a couple of lower level classes in his major without credit. </p>
<p>With that taken into account, the plan he laid out, which meet all the requirements, didn't require him to even take a full load either of his sophomore and senior years (no junior year, remember?). He did have to take courses in his minor next year, of course.</p>
<p>Our concern remains that if they won't let him register for upper level courses as a sophomore, he's going to have trouble meeting his minor requirement.</p>
<p>I don't have any advice to offer here, but I think it's important for parents and students who are considering college offers this year (and in the future) to research this very carefully before they accept. (It does sound like Strick did this, so this is not a criticism of you.:)) Every college has a different policy on accepting transfer units and granting advanced standing. My S is a first-year student at Berkeley and one of the reasons he chose to attend is because they are pretty liberal at granting advanced standing. After one semester, he has junior standing, thanks to community college and AP classes taken during high school. This allows him to not only enroll in the upper division classes he needs, but he gets preference in registration over 2nd years and 1st years. For this semester, he got into a couple of very popular upper div. history/poli sci classes that true freshmen have no chance of gaining entrance to. He's also able to double or triple major with relative ease (his idea, not his parents!) because he's not locked out of necessary upper div. classes this year or next. And Cal does not charge extra for over 16 units, so he can take extra courses for "free" if he wants to do so. </p>
<p>This sort of flexibility, and the efficacy of not having to repeat lower div. courses, appealed to him last spring when we got down to the brass tacks of comparing what his coursework actually would look like at the different schools he was accepted to. </p>
<p>Best of luck to Strick's S in resolving this issue. I do think a face-to-face with the person in charge of the minor or with the prof would probably resolve the issue, but it's really up to the kid to decide if it's worth the hassle of that.</p>
<p>I don't quite understand the situation, so I apologize in advance if my comments are not germane.<br>
In general, if classes have enrolment limits, seniors and juniors and majors are given priority. If students were shut out of a course previously, these students are given priority next time around. At least, that's what I've heard. It is a good thing, too, that a student who has been shut out of a class go talk to the instructor of that class and see if s/he can talk his/her way into the class. My older S tried that and was not successful because the waiting list was too large and the instructor did not feel he could make one exception without letting in all the others; Garland's D, however, got into the class she wanted by dint of just showing up for the first few lectures.
In my experience, if a student has Advanced Standing, that student is treated as a sophomore, not a freshman. So that should help Strick's S; I don't understand why he is being treated as a freshman.
There seems to be another issue, insofar as students who are majors are given priority. It is different from class standing. Am I mistaken here?</p>
<p>My S qualifies for Advanced Standing, but won't exercise the option. He ruled out applying to CMU for a number of reasons, but the limiting of access to certain classes, the difficulty of cross-registering between different schools within CMU were important factors.</p>
<p>You've got the gist of it Marite. </p>
<p>They don't give priority to upper lever classmen except by giving the earlier registration times. A certain number of seats are reserved for students within the major for each class rather than giving those students priority. </p>
<p>The other thing is that is policy in his particular school is that transfer hours don't count for class standing. That makes him a freshman regardless of his hours.</p>
<p>They do declare a student a senior if he has enough credit to graduate within the following year.</p>
<p>Robert had expressed an interest in showing up for class or auditing it in anticipation of someone dropping, but this intervened. I'm encouraging him to talk to the advisor and the professor. We'll see what they say. </p>
<p>It's not a disaster if there's hope of reaching a reasonable compromise where they don't prevent him from registering for at least some upper level classes next year. After that he's a senior.</p>
<p>We were aware of the issues about cross-registering, too, but were told about a number of students with double majors and such that were able to manage the issues. I guess time was on their side. It wasn't a big factor for my S.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's just the basic BS in Computer Science, interesteddad, not anything particularly interdisciplinary.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It requires 12 semesters of CS, 5 semesters of math, 4 semesters of Science/Engineering, 8 semesters of Humanities, and 8 semesters of electives (inc. 6 semesters of a required minor).</p>
<p>That is a very difficult schedule to put together, even in a normal 4-year sequence because there are so many requirements and no room for deviation. To try to satisfy these requirements in an abbreviated schedule is very difficult. It is precisely this problem, combined with the difficulty of constantly doubling up on hard math/science/engineering courses, that makes Engineering majors often take five years to complete a degree.</p>
<p>Realistically, your son picked a tough major to try in three years.</p>
<p>
[quote]
**It's not advised to do more than one project course a semester
[/quote]
**</p>
<p>If he was unable to register for the course you mention why didn't he take an additional project course? I mean he is under registered correct? Does he need permission for project course registration?</p>
<p>
[quote]
R had expressed an interest in showing up for class or auditing it in anticipation of someone dropping, but this intervened.
[/quote]
The email? I spent a good part of my education and my career simply disregarding "you can't do it this way" messages - and going right ahead and doing whatever it was that I couldn't do anyway. Unless the email threatened your son with arrest for trespassing if he showed up in class, the audit approach is the tried-and-true way for college students to gain entry into over-enrolled classes.</p>
<p>Ok and he would get a grade to compete the credit for degree how? I missed that part of auditing.</p>
<p>I am a little confused so bear with me as I test for understanding</p>
<p>Your son technically has enough credits to make him a senior (because of either AP credits or college credits that he took in high school). ON CMU's records do they consider him to be a freshman or a junior Vho transferred in?</p>
<p>He also probably has to meet a minimum residiency requirements and rack up "X" number of credits as a matriculated student at CMU (probably around 60) in order to graduate. How many credits will he have to rack up? </p>
<p>I do not understand why the school at minimum did not give him advanced standing as an upper sophmore/ lower junior and updated his class status accordingly.</p>
<p>You state that he will not be able to graduate until 2008, which means he still has 4 to 5 terms at CMU (counting this term and provided that he is graduating in spring 2008). </p>
<p>For example;</p>
<p>If your son is in CIT, they have General Ed requirements that consists of the following:</p>
<p>Has he completed all of his general education requirements?</p>
<p>Has he also taken the required pre-rec for the upper level courses which he is interested in taking.</p>
<p>hazmat, any professor can write you into a class.. at least at my college anyway. the department head even says if the professor will take you you're more than welcome to enroll in that class. </p>
<p>I actually got signed into a bunch of upper level graphic design/art courses without ever taking the foundations.. the prof's just waived the prereq's and requirements and let me in. and I got A's in them all.</p>
<p>interesteddad, you left out a math course (stat II) that was a prerequiste for one of the courses in his minor, sort of an implied requirement. Oh, and some of the humanities, and math courses and can be double counted against business administration requirements. That knocks the number back down some.</p>
<p>Fortunately, his transfer credits were all in those hard math and science courses since he was at a school for the math and sciences. His school weren't embarrassed about stacking those up on him when he was in high school and he lived. He's also covered most of the humanities and all he'll need of the electives. </p>
<p>What may not have come across clearly is that he spent the last two years of high school taking regular college course at a college. It was the equivalent of the first two years of an engineering or pre-med degree. When I say he has enough credit to be a junior, that credit is in the specific classes it takes to be a junior, rather than random classes. Half a college curriculum. But he's an entering freshman, not a transfer student.</p>
<p>So try to understand he's not trying to jam 4.5 years in 3 years, he's just trying to get 2.5 done in 3.</p>
<p>When we looked at the course requirements, we basically mapped out specific required course and all their prerequisites in his major and minor and laid them out against the published class rotation to see if that was possible. It is. Very reasonably. His advisor agrees.</p>
<p>For instance, after this semester, he'll be past the 4 critical CS prerequisites. Except for Finance, which requires that extra stat course, his minor's pretty flat and it's only a matter of getting in the courses. That thing we're a little worried about.</p>
<p>He may not get the exact classes he wants, but the schedule and the requirements menu (take one of the following seven courses) gives him pretty much the same flexibility to choose classes it would give any other junior if he got to register like a junior. If he has to wait until he's a senior to register for any upper level courses in his minor, he'll be as sunk as any other student would, no less, no more.</p>
<p>BTW, I was the one who got through in 4 years of college in 3 years (married working, full time). He's not doing what I did at all, thank goodness.</p>
<p>I'm sorry this has come across so garbled, folks. </p>
<p>
[quote]
If he was unable to register for the course you mention why didn't he take an additional project course? I mean he is under registered correct?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's in his major. He's already taking 3 CS courses this semester and shouldn't add another one. They also complete the major prerequisites for CS. He really couldn't take another until he completes these.</p>
<p>calmom, he was told specifically he could not audit in the email. It's moot if they're not going to let him in the class for credit anyway.</p>
<p>sybbie719, he's officially enrolled as a freshman and his class standing doesn't change but once a year no matter how many hours he has. School policy says that transfer hourse don't count toward standing. He's got most of the general requirements as I detail above and will have enough hours at CMU to meet the residency requirement by the time he expects to graduate.</p>
<p>My wife and I were used to profs talking to us and deciding whether to waive certain requirements. Robert explained his background and took college junior and senior CS courses while in his high school/college program. I'm hoping the email we got was just an automatic response that can be over come with reasonable explanation. </p>
<p>We doubt he'll get in the class this semester under the circumstances. That's OK, so long as they don't automatically shut him out next year.</p>
<p>hi Strick,</p>
<p>The best advice I think is see what happens when your son pursues this further tomorrow. He just got the e-mail today. Is he persistent? Is he the type of kid who will go further "up" if he's not satisfied? </p>
<p>Just want to make sure others aren't too quick to condemn CMU. This could happen anywhere and you have to wait to see how CMU responds given the circumstances. My son's CMU experience with scheduling/advising went smoothly overall but there were overlaps between his majors. He was an AMP student (accelerated masters program) so no, as someone suggested, CMU doesn't discourage this type of thing, quite the opposite [he could have graduated in 4 with BS and MS but stayed 5th yr for a second BS (in computer science)]. It's as interdisciplinary a school as they come. The problem here is just space and giving priority to upperclassmen (and how they define upperclassmen) so they can graduate in a timely matter. </p>
<p>Can he pick up another CS course to make room in a future semester for this course? I realize this can be rough given the workload in some CS courses. As a last resort would he consider taking the course in the summer if it's offered? Would be cheaper than another semester...</p>
<p>edit: we cross posted, you answered my question about taking another CS course.</p>
<p>2331clk, you ask a good question. He's a persistent as humanly possible about somethings. This involves human contact, and there's he's a bit shy.</p>
<p>I also have to second what you say about not necessarily condemning CMU. This seems to be several policies converging to hit a student with unusual circumstances. I might look hard at those policies if you've got a lot of hours, but that's true of many things in deciding about whether to attend any school. No place is perfect for everyone.</p>
<p>I don't have much additional to offer to this interesting, complex situation. But since Marite mentioned the story of my D getting herself into a class by showing up, let me amplify it as a story of persistence. This was a class she needed for her major; her advisor, her class dean, and the head of the dept all counseled to take something that was available at a lower level which would have fulfilled the requirement, but would not cover something new to her. She really didn't want to do that.</p>
<p>The class was already overfilled, and the waitlist was long. My D showed up the first day, talked to the prof, argued her reasons, got no promises. She kept showing up, did the assignments, participated in the class, kept emailing. At one point, the prof pleaded lack of chairs--the class was just too full. So D started bringing a chair with her.</p>
<p>She got in. (I don't claim this method will always work....)</p>
<p>My S also accepted at CMU's CS school. They made a point of saying that many engineering students wish to take CS classes, but the CS students get first priority. He was also told he could expect a MS in 4 years, given all the APs and college credits (dozen each). He was warned that it would be hard to have a minor, because the college is literally divided into separate schools. My S was not really sure of future major (still isn't), and thought he'd do better at a general college with core program. The housing at CMU was newer and offered more variety, and there was that pizza shop in the CS building.
Anyway, there CS dept seemed really good. I am generally sorry that your S is going thru this stress. Is he trying for a minor in business? That could be much harder than a minor in Mellon Sch of Science. Could he take courses in business without making it an official minor? Anyway, I certainly hope it gets easier for him next year, when he is officially no longer a freshman.</p>