Frustrated - need honest opinions

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi everyone - I'm a long-time lurker with a question. </p>

<p>I'm frustrated with my spouse. We have a rising junior and live in a crazy competitive school district where kids get help (often too much help) regularly. We are not in the income bracket to be paying for this kind of help (e.g. tutoring, college counseling, etc.) and I've been okay with that because our kid does pretty well. </p>

<p>But last night I had dinner with a friend and she was talking about how important leadership is, and suggested some ways for my daughter to get some more of that under her belt in high school. I mentioned it to my husband today and he got very angry and told me that I should not be suggesting anything to our daughter and that "she will end up where she deserves to end up" college-wise.</p>

<p>I tried to tell him that it's not that simple, that kids need some guidance in order to know what could be important to help them get into the college of their choice, and that there are tons of kids getting "super help" that our daughter isn't getting. He just kept insisting that she would be fine and to leave her alone and again said "she will end up where she deserves and it will be fine."</p>

<p>The whole conversation made me very upset because I felt like I wasn't explaining myself well - but maybe I am the one who is wrong and I should just let things be. It's just that she is a bright, hard-working, wonderful kid - and if her having some kind of leadership position is going to make the difference between getting in somewhere and not getting in...isn't that something we should encourage? I know that while there are some kids who think of it all by themselves, it honestly doesn't seem like too many are just coming up on their own with these fabulous opportunities.</p>

<p>Honest opinions welcome.</p>

<p>(Just a little info if it helps: daughter has a 4.0 weighted GPA - our district does not give unweighted grades - and is taking three APs next year. She has not taken SATs yet and has had no prep, but took a sample SAT recently administered at a free evaluation center, and scored a 1950. She does not play any sports but is a team manager for one of the schools' teams, is president of one club which is a low-key club (meets once or twice/month), is employed for 15 hours/week during the school year, and does some volunteer work. It seems like many of the other kids in her achievement group are either playing a sport, in student government, an editor for the school newspaper, or something else that seems little more "meaty.")</p>

2

<p>I’m betting there’s plenty of “leadership” in what she’s doing already, if you stop and think about it. Team manager means being responsible for a host of things in often stressful situations. She’s a club president, which is leadership by any definition…even if it’s not the big name student organization. Frankly, employment will set her apart from many of her hothouse classmates who are too busy racking up “college application experiences” to have learned the basic but very important lessons that employment teaches. And volunteer work makes the world a better place, plus you can mention it on the application!</p>

3

<p>Is it possible that your husband perceives you as being overly pushy with your daughter? I can see him disagreeing with your point of view, but the anger suggests that there is a longer-term issue or pattern, and that something you said pushed a button. So it could have something to do with a history of your parenting approach-- or it could also relate to a history of the way you deal with your husband – or even his own feelings about the way his parents treated him. For example, if his own mom pressured him to do things in high school that he didn’t enjoy, your suggestions about your daughter might be bringing up some painful memories from his own childhood.</p>

<p>“I tried to tell him that it’s not that simple,” sounds kind of patronizing and bossy – that is, perhaps it comes off to him as, “I tried to point out to him how stupid he is and how I am always right”-- a better way of approaching things with a spouse might be to solicit his opinions - asking and listening rather than simply “telling.” </p>

<p>Keep in mind that not all kids are meant to be “leaders.” I don’t know you or your daughter, but it sounds from your post that you are trying to turn your daughter into something that she is not. “Leadership” doesn’t count unless it is genuine and comes from within-- it’s not a title or an office, it is something that is reflected in the student’s personality and likely to be apparent, or not, through the letters of recommendation that the teachers and g.c write. </p>

4

<p>Your daughter doesn’t need “super help” – your husband is right about that. And a few leadership positions are not going to make the difference between whether she gets into a school or not. If you’ve read some of the acceptance threads on this forum, you’ve seen that sometimes strong students are rejected and less impressive-looking students are accepted, and nobody knows why. Let your daughter do the activities she wants to do – there’s really no need to push her to do more “leadership”.</p>

<p>Where she might be able to use some help, though, is on her SATs. I know she took that one test with no prep, but she should be able to pull a better score than that. If she’s not the self-study type, you should get her a prep class or a tutor. SATs can make much more of a difference than ECs.</p>

5

<p>I think it’s easy to get crazed about college admissions. Been there/done that! And it’s especially difficult not to get overly energized if you read here, where everyone’s kid seems to have invented the wheel (the first time). I learned with my kid not to push too hard–to love the kid on the couch, as I have often read here.</p>

<p>It might be a good idea to have your daughter take a sample ACT test since some kids do considerably better (or worse) on that test than on the SAT and they are considered equal by college admissions officers. After that, a little prep can be a very good thing, and it can be more cost-effective to work with a tutor or very small class since the prep courses cover every aspect of the test equally, and most kids have specific areas that will improve their scores. But there is no need to overdo it.</p>

<p>Another element of her application that is worth spending time and energy is her common app essay. It can tell a lot more about your daughter than a very impressive list of extracurricular activities.</p>

<p>Whatever happens, it’s good to remember that there are no guarantees, and that there’s an element of chance at many schools that may seem appropriate for your daughter. You can do all the research and preparation in the world and still not get into a whole bunch of schools! So it’s a great idea to find schools that have early and rolling admissions (not early decision unless she is absolutely positive of her choice and you are sure you can pay for it) so that she’ll know pretty early in her senior year that she’s definitely going to college! My daughter got into a school a couple of months before the rest, and we could both relax! And that’s where she is going, even though it was in the middle of her list of 7 schools, and she was admitted to a school in her top three.</p>

<p>So take a deep breath and try to relax!</p>

6

<p>Your daughter is just fine. She will grow where she is planted. I’m with your husband…leave her alone. She has a nice list of accomplishments as they stand. No need to start creating other things because of a false perception that these contrived leadership things will somehow advance your daughter. </p>

<p>This is a smile and nod time with your friend. </p>

7

<p>One of the biggest fallacies of the college application process is the benefit of contrived leadership positions. Adcoms can see right through the president for the sake of being president smoke screen. </p>

<p>The best college applications will be ones where you daughter’s passions show through. To get the best fit, she needs to show who she is, not who she thinks some adcom wants her to be. </p>

<p>15 hours a week employment show a lot about a high school student. It shows dependability, groundedness (is that a word?) and an ability to make sacrifices. Compared to playing a HS sport without true stand out caliber (eg all state awards) the job wins hands down.</p>

<p>Yes your D may need your help and guidance in presenting herself on the application - she may not see all the great things that make her special. But no, she does not need your help in creating a persona to present on her apps that isn’t real.</p>

8

<p>What tier of schools is your daughter aiming for? D2 was a humanities student and was looking at tippy top schools. She liked to write and be involved with student activities. Her private counselor told her which activity/position would be better regarded by adcoms, and she aimed for those positions. She was the editor for the school paper/magazine, and was very involved with the student government, but dropped debate because it would be time consuming. Now, if the counselor had told her that the only way for her to get into her school of choice was to become the captain of hockey team, there would be no way she would even consider doing it. So, D2 didn’t do anything she didn’t want to do for ECs, but she did focus on the ones which would make her more competitive.</p>

9

<p>You know my husband said the same thing, whatever the kids end up it’s where they end up. I mentioned to my kids about leadership, she did manage to become a president of some club, but I didn’t push it. My kid was picky about what activities she wanted to do in high school.</p>

10

<p>I’m not of the belief that colleges want their entire campus full of “leaders.” There are artistic types, scientific types, service-oriented types as well as many other personalities that go into making an interesting and diverse class. Your daughter has the best chance of finding a college that suits her by being herself and continuing to engage in the activities that she feels compelled to do for their own sake.<br>
The only boy I know who received an early write to Yale the year my daughter graduated hs belonged to very few clubs- only a couple of academic ones- and had no leadership experience at all. But he really knew who he was and what he loved; mathematics and science. So no, leadership is not the be-all and end-all. Not by a long shot.
Help your daughter find what really excites her and focus on that. Make sure that what she loves really comes through in her essays and is consistent with what her teachers and counselor will say about her, and keep up the great GPA and she should have no trouble. (She’ll end up where she deserves to end up. :slight_smile: )</p>

11

<p>Um…she is president of a club as a rising junior, and the manager of a sports team. Those ARE leadership positions.</p>

12

<p>Your daughter is fine. She has more leadership than my D2 had, and she was admitted everyplace she applied last year, including U of Chicago, Swarthmore, Harvey Mudd, and Carleton. Don’t worry about it. Your focus should be on helping her develop a list of colleges that are a good fit for her and affordable. Do NOT get caught up in the competitive push that is sure to be going on in your district over prestige and name brands. Some of those MIGHT be the best school for your kid, and she MIGHT get admitted and you MIGHT be able to afford them. But the whole point of this process is to find a school where your kid can get a good education in her major of choice, enjoy her experience, and not come out burdened by a lot of debt. All the rest is just noise. Love the kid on the couch and help her find her college niche. Ignore all other parent and student pressure (hard, but now is the time to start tuning it out).</p>

13

<p>I don’t think the typical high school leadership positions make that much difference. Character is important, and working hard, being a good friend, employment, any number of things can show that, including the essay.</p>

<p>Concerning SAT or ACT scores, google test-optional colleges (fair test is one site) and you will see that many top colleges do not require scores at all. Though merit aid may require scores at some of them. One of my kids didn’t submit scores and got into her two top choices.</p>

<p>None of us were there during your conversation. Two things struck me: one, that your husband got angry (and you feel defensive); and two that he used the word “deserve,” as in “she will get in where she deserves,” which struck me as strange, and sort of judgmental.</p>

<p>I don’t think you should feel too defensive. It seems to me that the atmosphere of your community and your daughter’s school is making you feel insecure and causing you to question your approach with your daughter. It might be a case of “if you can’t beat them, join them.”</p>

<p>However, I think many of the kids who are so busy racking up AP’s and scores and “leadership positions” are under a lot of stress. It is not a healthy way for kids to live, always doing things so they can get into such and such a college. Many of them end up depressed and anxious, whether on an Ivy campus or somewhere else.</p>

<p>The real trick is to help your daughter explore genuine interests, and help her move toward natural development of her self in every way, academic, social, emotional, and in her talents. It is like surfing: you catch the wave, as a parent, but it is her wave.</p>

<p>In other words, yes, I think parents need to be involved, but not in the way you are suggesting. So I don’t think you OR your husband are entirely right.</p>

<p>If you allow your daughter to develop in a natural way, regardless of what others are doing, then she will end up at the right school for her, with the right kind of subtle help choosing where to apply. This is a question of fit, not “deserving.” She (and you) will have to carefully look at schools in terms of her interests and possible major (not yet, though, things can still change), how many distribution requirements, independent or interdisciplinary work, research and internship opportunities, general vibe, and many other factors.</p>

<p>I want to send you support because your community sounds difficult. ! </p>

<p>It might be good for you to talk to someone like a counselor, because it sounds like your husband is not particularly respectful of you. You should not have to defend yourself and a conversation about parenting and college should be helpful to you and to your daughter, not a source of pain.</p>

14

<p>Just curious…why did this “friend” feel compelled to offer advice? And what “leadership” things did she suggest?</p>

<p>As Oldfort said upstream…your daughter needs some leadership…she has some. And if the things suggested are out if her range if interests, there really isn’t any point in doing them.</p>

<p>It sounds like your daughter has found a nice niche of things SHE enjoys doing. In my opinion, that is very important!</p>

15

<p>If this had played out at our house, I don’t think that DH would have ever been involved. I would have mention to D that Mrs. X mentioned it might be a good idea to get involved with xyz, what do you think? She would have either said, “Cool that sounds like fun can you get me more info?” or “Get real mom, why would I want to do that?” or more likely,“When would have time for that???” Personally, I think your D has enough leadership going on.</p>

16

<p>First, there is nothing wrong with giving some ideas/advice to your D, but base it on what you think is right for her, not on what some neurotic parent tells you.</p>

<p>I do agree with the others – for a rising junior she has fine leadership positions as president of a club and manager for a team. If you encourage her to take on additional leadership positions as a senior, it should be because she is interested in getting involved with a certain club or two at a deeper level because she enjoys them, not as a play to get into college.</p>

<p>And for some unsolicited advice, I do think that if you can swing,it, that a SAT prep class that it could be worthwhile. </p>

17

<p>Agree with others that managing a team and being president of a club are leadership already. (However, it also appears that there is an exaggeration of the effect of leadership on college admissions.)</p>

<p>Unweighted GPA can be easily calculated, and is a more realistic measure to use when assessing whether colleges can be reach/match/safety. Do not rely on the high school’s notion of weighted GPA, since high schools calculate them differently.</p>

18

<p>I think the worries of your friend have now become yours! Your D is fine with what she has. Colleges see right through these long, endless lists of EC’s and leadership positions. </p>

19

<p>My kids did their own SAT prep without a course, so that is also possible. Prep does not have to be expensive, she can use books you can purchase online (get the Collegeboard Official SAT Studay Guide as a starting place). Just make sure she has someone who can help her figure out why she missed the problems she did when taking practice tests, that is the most useful way to study. At our house I helped with that.</p>

20

<p>I agree with the other posters. My daughter got into quite a few selective colleges with little “leadership”. She did exactly what she wanted to do and wasn’t about to play any games of “how can I impress colleges”. Her results weren’t perfect but neither does she feel she “wasted” time doing anything she didn’t really want to do.</p>

<p>I also agree that the SAT score sounds low considering the 4.0 and this is what I would encourage her to work on.</p>