Frustrating parents!

Parents Forum
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<p>I wanted to get some other parents' input on the way my parents are behaving. I don't know what to make of their behavior so if you could help me out in dealing with them, that'd be fantastic.</p>

<p>I'm currently a HS junior, and starting with the college search process. I'm looking at mainly liberal arts colleges (both elite and mid-tier) and this is apparently greatly devastating to my mother. She thinks I'm taking a risk by applying to schools like Bowdoin, Kenyon (AKA schools that "no one has heard of") and she's scared about me going to such schools. The other day, she outright told me that she was jealous of her friend's daughter who just got into schools like Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, and U Penn. She's always going on about how her dream was always for me to go to an Ivy League and she's frustrated that neither my sister nor I could fulfill her dream of having a child attend an Ivy League for undergrad. However, she's just in it for the prestige; she wants to tell her friends that I "go to Harvard", because it'd be too embarrassing for her to tell them that I "go to Bowdoin". And she even told me she wants me to stop considering LACs because she doesn't know enough about them! I give her huge lectures educating her about what LACs are and why I prefer them to larger universities, but it seems like it doesn't even sink in, because immediately after, she'll just go back to thinking I should go to a school with name recognition so she can be proud of me when she brags to other parents. She also thinks I will have trouble landing jobs if I go to schools that "no one has heard of" versus if I go to Harvard, where I don't want to go and won't even get in anyway.</p>

<p>Then there's my dad. I don't think he really cares about the whole LAC thing the way my mother is, which is good. However, he is greatly concerned with the fact that I don't have "quantitative skills" since I didn't take any extra math classes beyond the core requirements and I have no knowledge of computer programming. He's threatening to be really ****ed off at me if I don't get a better score on the SAT than I did last time and if I don't get good scores on my SAT subject tests (which I don't need for admission purposes anyway). He also thinks that since I am definitely not majoring in something like Engineering, Biology, or Computer Science, and rather will be majoring in something more along the lines of International Relations, that the people who majored in more practical things will have plentiful career opportunities as soon as they graduate and that I will not have a job at all unless I am at the very top of my field. Employers won't want me if I didn't major in something "practical" the way they will chase after math and science majors. Apparently he has seen liberal arts majors "floating" around with no jobs and being unproductive. He also says that I will not be able to maintain the lifestyle that my family has been affluent enough to provide me with as I've grown up. I don't know whether to believe this or not; I've heard many times that what you major in doesn't matter? The thing is, I really suck at math and science everything and cannot spend my whole life with a job in those fields; it would just suck the joy out of my life. At the same time, however, I want to put food on the table. Am I really screwed? That makes me paranoid. I plan on going to grad school and perhaps getting a doctorate degree.</p>

<p>Anyways, just feel free to agree with or refute what my parents are saying, and how you think I should confront them about these things.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>There is no point "lecturing"your mother, since she obviously does not value your opinion on this subject. Instead, find statistical data on admissions, PhD production, job placement, etc. of schools you are interested in, and show her that it is comparable to the schools she likes.</p></li>
<li><p>Your father is right that CS majors have better job prospects straight out of college than IR majors. Unfortunately this fact alone will not make you any better at math or CS.</p></li>
<li><p>If your parents will be paying for your college education, you should keep your cool, behave maturely, and find out what they will be willing to pay for, and how much.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>^^good advice and pretty much what I was going to type…if international relations is what you are pointing toward, do your research on colleges that are well respected in those fields and have good acceptance rates to grad schools and law schools if academia and Phd doesn’t appeal to you once you are actually in college. Chill, have mature discussions, enlist your mom/dad’s aid and all that “stuff.”</p>

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<p>Sorry if I seem like I’m not keeping my cool in the original post. I was just letting out my frustration in the post, but when I’m with them, I do behave maturely.</p>

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<p>Well, my Aunt was an Art History major, and she went and got her MD. </p>

<p>Will you be able to maintain your lifestyle and not be a doctor/engineer/biologist? Maybe. Maybe not. I would guess right away, very much not. But if you wanted to live that lifestyle right away, you’d be an engineer, wouldn’t you? </p>

<p>You can live on less, and still live a good life. </p>

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<p>Well… whether or not you’ll be screwed over after getting a humanities PhD is totally debateable. :wink: I’d worry about your BA first. PhDs and Masters degrees are probably too far out for you, and considering how hard it is to get one of them, and to get a job after one- considering the over-abundance of PhDs, that’s the least of your problems right now. </p>

<p>Obviously plenty of people aren’t engineers/scientists/whatever. </p>

<p>What sort of I.R. are you going to go into? If you specialize in a region that’s considered “needed” by the government, I doubt your major would be useless- think Persian, Arabic, Chinese as your languages.</p>

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<p>Try out computer programming. I’m pretty terrible at math (well, except for discrete math) and science (especially science) but I’m doing pretty well in CS. Like half of the employers in my school’s career fair were looking for CS majors, and there are only about 50-75 seniors in CS.</p>

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<p>^Thanks, Yurtle! </p>

<p>I am sure that I could live on less, but it’d just be very tough for me to adjust to after growing up in an affluent household in a wealthy suburb. That totally makes me sound like a spoiled brat, sorry. But I guess it will better help me deal with living in the real world, eh? I wouldn’t mind living in the country or something; simple living is something that appeals to me after growing up in a rich-kid suburb.</p>

<p>In the original post, I guess it sounded like I really wanted to do International Relations but I am actually not sure. It could be IR, French, English, Religion, Sociology, Anthropology, Linguistics, any of those really because those are all things I really enjoy. Writing and English are my biggest strengths and passions, along with foreign languages and cultures.
And you’re right that Master’s and Doctorate degrees are too far out to be thinking about right now… hmm. But if I had a choice right now, I would go on to higher studies beyond a bachelor’s degree.</p>

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<p>I’ve learned that many affluent suburb-dwellers have a warped view of “bad” or a poor area. I don’t mean this in a bad way; I doubt most kids realize their expectations- but the median income in this country is about 50k a year. My AP Government class was quite shocked to learn this. </p>

<p>Places that I’ve heard kids call “slums”, “a hood”, or “the ghetto” are really not that bad by any means. </p>

<p>But “simple living” is not what you probably think it is, or expect. And a PhD probably won’t be of much use in the middle of nowhere. </p>

<p>Take a look at PhD Comics (Piled High and Deeper) to get a humorous look at how hard a higher degree is. </p>

<p>Either you can tough it out and deal with less (and a LOT less while you’re a grad student) or you won’t adjust well, in which case, I’d suggest Business & Marketing or Advertising- something that involves creativity and practicality, even some anthro, considering many anthropologists are hired to do field studies about certain markets. </p>

<p>Don’t forget that “practical” doesn’t mean “heartless”, “math-filled” and so on. Practical can be creative, and is probably at its best when it is.</p>

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<p>As someone in a PhD program in IR right now, I can tell you my number one regret from undergrad was that I didn’t take enough quantitative classes. Almost every decent graduate program (and all the top ones) in most of the social sciences requires a strong math base, particularly in statistics. No matter what you do with any of your interests, knowing some programming and having advanced math skills (especially statistical analysis) will put you on top of the grad school admission derby as well as help you with government/NGO/private sector jobs. While there are many people who know a lot about foreign cultures, very, very few of those have the quantitative skills to analyze those cultures and how they interact. Learning skills of any kind–whether language-based, math-based, computer-based, etc.–is definitely a worthy goal in college. Almost any hit to your GPA is a worthwhile tradeoff. </p>

<p>Also, if you’re dissatisfied with your parents’ preferences interfering in your college choice and you have an impressive academic record, you can always look into the full-scholarship option (particularly at state schools in the Southeast- my personal fave). Many people dismiss this idea offhand (state schools! in the south! the horror the horror!), but I know several people who were able to overrule their parents’ insistence on prestige and gained a lot of independence (as well as a great and cost-free education that launched them into top grad programs) by doing so. Worthwhile to look into as a backup option at least.</p>

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<p>I have a real bratty side…If my mom ever said the following to me…</p>

<p>She’s always going on about how her dream was always for me to go to an Ivy League and she’s frustrated that neither my sister nor I could fulfill her dream of having a child attend an Ivy League for undergrad.</p>

<p>I would say…“it’s always been my dream to be the daughter of a mom who graduated from an Ivy League school. If I had a mom who was an Ivy grad, then she wouldn’t be trying to vicariously live her life through mine. She’d have her own Ivy accomplishment. It’s been such a disappointment not to have a mom who’s an Ivy league grad. I’m jealous of the daughters who have ivy league moms. Don’t you feel bad for me?”</p>

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<p>^Haha, mom2collegekids, I like that.</p>

<p>vig180: So it’s not to late for me to acquire those quantitative skills, is it? What quantitative classes would you recommend that I take, and how far should I go with them (like up to what level)? And do you have any recommendations for state schools in the Southeast where I could potentially get a full-ride scholarship?
Also, did you major in IR? How was it finding jobs after you graduated? What are you planning to do after you obtain your PhD? (Sorry for the overabundance of questions!)</p>

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<p>How about we shelve the drama for the next 12 months? Tell mom that HYP are rejecting record numbers of kids – but that you are glad to apply to the ONE of those that she chooses. Tell her you need a back up plan because of the high rejection rates and pick two or three schools (including one that is easier to get into than Kenyon or Bowdoin!) that you will also apply to. Do your best on all the applications. </p>

<p>ONLY after April 1, 2011 do you start discussing the pros and cons of wherever it is that you have been ACCEPTED. It is really crazy to argue pros and cons before then. </p>

<p>As to majors, well, again, it sounds like you and your parents like to stake out a corner and refuse to ever venture into the center of the room. Yes, CS can be an employable field – and, no, any liberal arts degree is never interchangeable (think about it, if you are hiring for a Big Corp, the kid with a French degree brings more job related ability to the business than the kid with a degree in Romantic Poetry). </p>

<p>You need an Asteroid Plan. What would you major in if an Asteroid hit your house, destroying every person and support in your life? What if you walked out the door at age 22 with nothing but the clothes on your back and your diploma in your hand? If it’s an International Relations degree, did you happen to pick up a basic course in accounting? Human Relations (ie, personnel law)? A second and third language? </p>

<p>If you can sketch out some “solids” that would make you hireable, then your Dad might be more in your camp. If you are out waving scarves, saying that you’ll minor in Modern Dance and Tea Leaf reading, then he is right to wonder just how you are going to manage on Graduation Day + One. </p>

<p>Practice appreciation. Seriously. You are blessed with a nice lifestyle. Instead of grumping/whining about how your parents don’t 100% support your happy visions (without you chiming in to address their concerns!), try telling them how much you DO appreciate the goods and services they have provided for you. </p>

<p>Your parents ARE trying to get you ready for the next level. Your mom knows that a Harvard degree might open more doors for you – and she wants that for you. Your Dad knows that you like nice things and he’s trying to tell you the paths that he sees that might get you those things. </p>

<p>What is NOT going to happen: your parents are not going to lie to you and tell you that your dream world will immediately produce the kind of paycheck that gets you the stuff/lifestyle that you’ve been enjoying. So . . . quit whining. If you want a smaller college and the smaller paycheck that goes with certain degrees, start showing your parents you are willing and capable of living with . . .much less.</p>

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<p>My suggestion: back off the discussion about school choice for now. Instead have a sit-down with your parents to talk finances – you probably don’t qualify for need-based aid based on your own post, so you need to what your parents can and will pay for college, to determine whether part of your choices should entail looking for schools that offer strong merit aid.</p>

<p>If it turns out that your parents aren’t too keen on the idea on paying $60K/year to keep in you in college, then you might be able to get your mom cured of Ivy-itis by educating her on the financial aid system. You could start by asking your parents if they would like you to try to find a school that offers a nice scholarship to reduce the cost. If they say yes, that’s a good opening to point out that the Ivies do not offer any sort of merit aid. </p>

<p>Are you interested in LAC’s? Check out the distribution or core requirements of the LAC’s you are looking at. Your dad may be happier once he realizes that many of these schools do require courses in quantitative reasoning. Also, many students who did not consider themselves strong in math or sciences in high school end up shifting to science majors in college, at LAC’s, in part because of the more supportive educational environment. Trying to get through a math or chemistry course at a large research university can be cut-throat – you’ve got little chance of making it in a difficult lecture course with 600 students and a strict curve… The same course taught by a full prof to a group of 25 students may excite and motivate you in unexpected ways. LAC’s tend to be more flexible - you can enter as a prospective English major and end up graduating as a Chemistry major. It can be much more difficult to shift from humanities/social studies to hard sciences at a large university. </p>

<p>Once you are clear on the finances, do your own research, get your college viewbooks, leave them lying around the house and point out things in passing that you know your parents will appreciate. For example – if you see a news article about some accomplished person who attended Bowdoin – mention it. </p>

<p>If your mom has her heart set on an Ivy… maybe humor her. Harvard takes the common app … so next year send off apps to Harvard and whatever other common app Ivies your mom like. You don’t have to do anything special for that – clearly your family can afford the application fee. In the meantime you can tell your mom you are applying to all of those LAC’s she’s never heard of as “safeties”. Your mom is going to have a hard time arguing with a rejection letter in the spring. (Though it might be a nightmare if, god forbid, you get waitlisted).</p>

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<p>We’re just starting this process with kid #3. I’d advise you to find what you love (this may take years haha), study it because you want to soak up everything you can and then find a job that allows you to love what you’re doing (and yet pay the bills). I don’t think success is all about the size of your paycheck but it helps to cover basic costs… </p>

<p>My oldest surprised us by earning a BFA in Graphic Design (she had followed a very stong academic track in HS, with lots of science and math, including Calc). She did well in GD and had job offers before graduation this past May (and she makes a good salary). I will admit that I suggested she take some business classes as electives to prepare her for the real world. She took lots of extra classes, as she too believed in exploring beyond her major (and what the heck, the extra credits didn’t cost extra).</p>

<p>My second knew from an early age he wanted to be a doctor and he is currently a neuroscience major at an Ivy. NO surprise that he’s majoring in a science. But he has chosen to take many liberal arts classes in college. Luckily he had 9 AP classes in HS so he had all the core stuff done and he has room to explore (and his college has no core requirements). In fact he just returned from a semester abroad where he chose to take ALL liberal arts classes.</p>

<p>This 3rd kid (a junior) has no idea what she wants to do. She is a strong math/sci kid but “thinks” she’d prefer to major in something else. She loves languages and anthropology but she’s not sure how that translates into a future career. She fits your dad’s image; she’s already taken Computer Programming (my background) and AP Statistics and she will be taking AP Calc BC next year. She will have probably 8 or 9 APs by graduation, including a couple science APs. She has been exposed to lots of subjects and she will probably continue to explore for awhile because she has plenty of interests… During summers, she has spent time at our state U Rutgers, Princeton and Swarthmore for various sports camps. She never wanted to look at colleges with her older siblings and really hasn’t fully toured their colleges. While in Boston this summer we saw MIT and Harvard and she had NO interest in either. She JUST began looking at schools again this week. My advice is to keep her options open. We looked at a variety of schools (top and med tier LACs and private Us and big and small IS and OOS state schools). She still doesn’t know what she likes but she’s starting to figure out what doesn’t work for her. </p>

<p>I was one of those kids who changed my major numerous times and I attended 3 colleges (some on exchange programs). I enjoyed exploring different environments. If LACs appeal to you and you feel you will thrive in that environment, then I say go for it. Maybe you could minor in business or economics or something more “practical”. Perhaps you can find a school or two that also meet your parents’ expectations. Schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Wesleyan, and Amherst have name recognition, lack of a core, and are more undergrad focused than your parents’ suggestions. Many kids change their opinions between fall and spring so it’s good to have options. My middle one had Yale as his #1 for a year and was deferred in Dec. Come April, to everyone’s surprise he turned down Yale to attend another school. No pressure from us, but he definitely heard grief from some people (who considered prestige the most important factor). He still loves Yale and would recommend it to others and he WOULD have gone there if they had accepted him EA. By the time April came around, he had simply moved on to other options.</p>

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<p>I like the approach about the high selectivity and all. It sounds like from your interests that a LAC is a good fit for you. What about applying to Dartmouth? Its an ivy that is very much like an LAC–in that it is small and has a strong liberal arts core. I think its a great place for someone who is undecided. </p>

<p>Also, there is a great link somewhere (the duke thread maybe?) that shows a WSJ article on the top 50 feeder schools to the top graduate programs. Williams in #5, Dartmouth #7, Amerherst #9, Swarthmore #10, etc. Bowdoin is # 19. </p>

<p>Maybe you can gently educate them about LACs and how well recruited graduates are from such schools. Maybe if you can take them on some tours of these schools with you they will begin to appreciate what they have to offer.</p>

<p>Good luck</p>

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<p>Anyway…I know that my post wasn’t helpful…lol…so…I’ll try to be helpful this time :)</p>

<p>Whether or not you are Ivy material, all students who have an interests in ivies (or who have parents who are interested in ivies) need to have a strategy for “what if.”</p>

<p>I think from your previous thread, I remember that your parents have said that they can pay around $25k -30k per year. Is that true? If not, what is the figure?</p>

<p>I think I remember that you won’t qualify for much/any FA based on your expected EFC.</p>

<p>Your stats are decent, but you have a D in a class, and you want to bring up your test scores.</p>

<p>If the above is correct, then you need to apply to a mix of…</p>

<p>1) ivies and LAC elites (the ivies to please mom and the top LACs for you._</p>

<p>2) mid-tier LACs that might give you generous merit. Include some midwest LACs.</p>

<p>3) some flagships that give generous merit to OOS students. Many have Honors colleges and other LAC-like programs that can give you that small LAC-like experience in a big school setting. These schools can be your financial safeties. Pick schools that will give you assured merit money for your stats. If the merit isn’t assured, then it’s not a financial safety school.</p>

<p>Right now, your mom is thinking emotionally, so she can’t give the best advice now. That said, apply to some ivies/elite LACs to please her. Then apply to the mid-tier LAC and financial safeties. There’s no point in arguing with her now, because the results (acceptances, merit awards, and FA packages) are likely going to either prove your mom right or wrong.</p>