<p>Sally, thanks. I agree that a bit of color and anecdotal evidence is ofter more informative than raw statistics, particularly for such a “dirty little secret” such as this subject!</p>
<p>I’ve often wondered about the following hypothetical. Let’s say that one child went to an elite but not need-blind school and the parents paid all 4-years up front in cash and never asked for financial aid (obtaining a discount on tuition that way). Is there anyway that a younger sibling might get any kind of preferential treatment for admission? Would they look up the sister’s file and see that? I think they might look at the graduated sibling for participation as parent and alumni volunteers.</p>
<p>We were always suspicious of private colleges that specifically listed on their application whether you were applying for FA or not!</p>
<p>IMHO, Georgetown Univeristy plays this card - a fellow student of my son’s class was accepted to Georgetown - who specifically asks on their app about whether the student will be applying for FA or not. We know her parents were wealthy and her stats were less stellar than some of the class applying to the same school who were denied.</p>
<p>I personally think that some private schools care about full tuition students more and it gives them the benefit of the doubt with the admissions committees. I truly doubt the admissions committes are “need-blind” at these institutions - how can they be when it’s on their app if they need FA or not!</p>
<p>My 2 cents.</p>
<p>Skeptical CJ</p>
<p>I’m one lucky b<em>st</em>rd. A URM without a need for financial aid. My stats aren’t bad either (3.6 GPA, 1970 SAT). I’m not applying to any need-blind universities anyway.</p>
<p>They’re going to love me!</p>
<p>Yesterday I looked at a list of which high schools in our state an admissions rep is visiting. The rep works for a top liberal arts school which is known as being very liberal, and as far as I can tell this LAC describes itself as “almost” need blind.</p>
<p>Well, she is visiting only very expensive private schools and public high schools in extremely wealthy areas. She is skipping over the many poor to middle class high schools.</p>
<p>I can’t believe I was shocked to see the list of high schools. It was eye-opening to me because the list shows me that the rep is out trolling my state only for full-pay students.</p>
<p>commasplice - Which state are you from and which LAC is it?</p>
<p>[Need-blind</a> admission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission]Need-blind”>Need-blind admission - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>see above link for need blind schools - their status is not a secret.</p>
<p>The dirty little secret that the rich are favored because they can pay isn’t a secret either. However why shouldn’t the rich have their advantage - someone has to pay full freight so that others (like myself) be advantaged by their poverty, their ability, their gifts, their diversity, etc.</p>
<p>“Those that can pay full tuition are much more likely to be of the demographics these schools most desire.”</p>
<p>Elite schools want more white kids from the Northeast? I don’t think that’s correct.</p>
<p>If you’re talking about the “development” demographic, that’s a whole separate analysis from the full-pay question. Most full-pays have no development potential.</p>
<p>“Well, she is visiting only very expensive private schools and public high schools in extremely wealthy areas. She is skipping over the many poor to middle class high schools.”</p>
<p>The Rep is just choosing to visit schools not just based on “poor” vs rich, but also the schools in the wealthy areas tend to have a lot of high performing students (just from the fact that more college aware families tend to live in those areas, PTA funding, more opportunities for students). They would rather target those 10% high performing kids (who are likely to get in) than seek out the 1% from the poorer high schools. Also high performing districts have counselors who are more pro-active (again due to parent /PTA pressure) to seek out college counselors and visits. Where I live,we have 2 schools - one is not ranked as high, one is over achieving. The overachieving is getting lots of college visits mainly due to the sheer number of applicants who are looking at the top colleges. Some of those kids will need financial aid too as wealthy school districts don’t mean much. Some families have lost jobs or move to apartments to live in high performing districts.</p>
<p>About private schools, same thing here, those high school counselors market their schools to the top colleges and get more college reps to come in.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>White students are probably underrepresented among students at some of the elite schools.</p>
<p>I was thinking about applying to UF full pay, since it’s probably within a price range my dad can cover, just for the admissions boost. I’m kind of thinking now since I qualify for more than enough need and merit based scholarships, it just wouldn’t be fair to him. </p>
<p>I’m First Generation anyway, so I’m hoping that hook will suffice. </p>
<p>Kind of unfortunate that the amount of money you can throw at a school means so much. :/</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Maybe a little. But it may depend what you’re comparing “underrepresentation” to. Is it the racial composition of HS grads, or the racial composition of the 18-year-old age cohort? Due to lower HS dropout rates, white students represented 63.9% of HS grads in 2008, but only 59.4% of the 18-year-olds were white. Due to higher HS dropout rates, black students made up 14.3% of HS grads, but 17.8% of the 18-year-olds were black. Similar for Hispanics, 15.1% of HS grads but 17.9% of the 18-yr-old cohort. With the highest graduation rate of all, Asian-Americans represented 5.3% of HS grads but only 4.4% of the 18-year-olds.</p>
<p>Harvard says its entering class is 43.1% white, 6.9% black, and 8.2% Hispanic, which would made all those groups “underrepresented” relative either to HS grads or to 18-year-olds. The only “overrepresented” group is Asians, at 15.9% of Harvard’s class. A word of caution, however: Harvard identifies 10.2% of its entering class as “international,” which could be any race, so that introduces some uncertainty into these numbers. </p>
<p>At Georgetown, in contrast, whites are “overrepresented” at 66.1% of the entering class. Blacks (6.2%) and Hispanics (6.7%) are underrepresented, while Asians (9.2%) are again overrepresented.</p>
<p>At Williams, whites (60.2%) are slightly underrepresented relative to HS grads and slightly overrepresented relative to the 18-year-old cohort. Blacks and Hispanics are underrepresented, and Asians are overrepresented.</p>
<p>At Middlebury, whites (67.3%) are overrepresented relative to either HS grads or 18-year-olds. Blacks and Hispanics are (once again) underrepresented, and Asians (5.6%) are only slightly overrepresented relative to the Asian percentage of HS grads.</p>
<p>Conclusion: this really varies by school, but blacks and Hispanics are almost always underrepresented at top schools, Asians are usually overrepresented, and whites swing either way.</p>
<p>Posting to be in on this thread. Thanks for all your input Sally. That process of numbering is called a grading rubric at my son’s school. </p>
<p>When I first started doing school research someone on cc had posted a link to UCSD’s grading process describing how they assign points. After reading it I realized that all schools must use some type of similiar system.</p>
<p>Sally, how do I know if a school IS need-blind or need-aware?
I noticed that UCs international students ratio has gone up by a lot in the past few years, and obviously the budget cuts, does it mean they are need-aware and circumstances like a “5” who needed a full ride might be replaced by two “6’s” who required only partial aid would happen?
A Berkeley’s admission officer has come to our school before, I asked the question how big of an influence does the budget issue have on the applicants especially the inner-state ones (like me). She said Berkeley isn’t affected by it and inner-states outer-states dont make a difference. However, many of the friends I made when I used to live in China got into UCLA and Berkeley with some relatively not-so-outstanding-stats. How should I view this?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Depends on whether you are considering admissions or admissions and financial aid (since getting admitted without sufficient financial aid is no better than getting rejected).</p>
<p>If the latter, then only schools which are full ride for everyone can be completely need-blind, since determination of financial aid in other cases is necessarily need-aware, even if admissions (based on academic and other factors) is need-blind.</p>
<p>nrseries-Most colleges are NOT need-blind. Those who are tend to boast of it prominently on their financial aid Web pages or you can try Google for the latest list. (Here’s one from US News that offers some interesting related stats as well: [Chart:</a> Generous Colleges That Claim to Admit Only on Merit - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2010/03/22/chart-generous-colleges-that-claim-to-admit-only-on-merit]Chart:”>http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2010/03/22/chart-generous-colleges-that-claim-to-admit-only-on-merit))</p>
<p>Note, however, that just because a college is need-aware, it doesn’t mean that the poorest students will be turned away. As I explained earlier, the strong applicants to Smith are accepted regardless of their ability to pay. Many pubic institutions are required to admit all applicants who meet certain criteria, even if they have high need.</p>
<p>Some need-aware colleges will deny all applicants whom they can’t afford to fund while others practice what is called “Admit-Deny,” meaning that the student will be accepted into the college but denied financial aid (or may be offered an inadequate amount). </p>
<p>If you know of so-so students from China who were admitted to Cal Berkeley, their ability to pay may have been a factor, but they also could have brought other strengths to campus that weren’t obvious to those of you beyond the closed admission office doors.</p>
<p>Hello Ms. Rubenstone!
I am so happy to have found your thread. </p>
<p>Last fall, our daughter told us the school she liked most of 20 campus visits was our alma mater. We were thrilled, double-checked her reasons, etc. It’s a top 30 school. She’s a good student, but perhaps borderline for this school even after extra-curriculars and all else said and done. Likely thrown in pile 4-5-6 somewhere. Let’s say 4 because we were alums. School, to their credit, says we used to lean towards need-blind, but we cannot afford to say that proactively in today’s economy. School is “needs-aware.” Meanwhile, we want to slam-dunk our daughter’s choice. That little box high on the application page? “Need Financial Assistance?” We left it unchecked. We wanted to use every advantage possible to gain her acceptance.</p>
<p>No huge problem fortunately. We have saved prodigiously since before we had kids. We’ve socked it away every month in UTMAs, 529s, whathave you. We are blessed to be able to squeeze by. Give daughter top-drawer education at fine school. She won’t be a princess, she’ll know how hard it is, and she will work to support it, and so forth. But we are not apologetic about our hard work, our saving for years, our planning. We haven’t had the best cars or kitchen countertops, but we will have the best education our kids might obtain. Many friends with big homes now shopping for school money. I’d say we’re blessed not to be, but this was very much by design and very hard work.</p>
<p>School admitted her. Happy days. Joy and tears. All very good. </p>
<p>Question: Still preparing to kiss big numbers away starting this summer. But wondering if there are places to turn to ask for even small amounts? We have not completed a FAFSA and do not intend to share our 1040 with any institution. </p>
<p>A neighbor is looking for money via web essay contests “vote for me” etc. Everyone says look at FastWeb.com and similar. I am skeptical. No one gives away $ for free, especially on the web. Won’t these websites collect email and other info for re-marketing purposes? Generate spam? Do we need to stoop to entering “vote for my kid” contests? Or are there worthy institutions who seek to support education in a noble fashion? I am not too hopeful. What do you think?</p>
<p>Can I knock on the door of our school’s financial aid or admissions directors with a “it doesn’t hurt to ask” approach? “Is there a 10% off discount for double legacies?”</p>
<p>(Not a subject that we talk about outside our home. Thanks for listening.)</p>
<p>EdMenke–I have known students who have successfully landed scholarships via FastWeb. You do have to steel yourself for ads and spam, but most inboxes these days are so flooded with this stuff anyway that the pros of FastWeb still outweigh the cons.</p>
<p>Note, however, that FastWeb merely identifies sources of scholarships. It doesn’t offer them. So the student (or, I suppose, the parent, in some households) then has to weed through the options and decide which ones to pursue. There are a lot of piddling scholarships on FastWeb which are probably still worth applying for as long as they don’t require seven essays; and there are some biggies as well, which are inevitably highly competitive.</p>
<p>But, as I often point out to the students in my orbit, “If you were to spend 20 hours searching and applying for scholarships on FastWeb, and you land only one for $1,000, that’s still a pay rate of 50 bucks an hour … which beats anything you’ll get flipping burgers at Mickey D’s … and you can do it on your own schedule.”</p>
<p>Re approaching the financial aid officers: If you have not applied for need-based aid, then obviously you won’t get any. And, because you said your daughter was a borderline applicant, she will not be in the running for academic merit aid. However, you can check the list of other merit awards, if any (e.g., art, community service) to see if she may be a contender in one of those categories. If so, you can approach the finaid folks with a plea for them to consider your daughter as a double legacy AND an artist, etc.</p>
<p>Some colleges have very specific guidelines for their merit awards and some are a lot vaguer. If your daughter fits a specific merit-aid profile (e.g., the aforementioned artist) or if her college is one of those that doesn’t clearly define the profile at all, then it may be worth a shot to approach the finaid folks, but don’t hold high hopes as you do so. Since your daughter isn’t receiving any aid at all at the moment, you literally have nothing to lose if you annoy them. (But if you annoy them too much, it may have some implications in the karma department. ;))</p>
<p>Ultimately, the best bet for your daughter may be to aim for a Resident Advisor job down the road, if her college offers this to select upper-class students. This can carve thousands off of room and board costs. If, as a freshman, your daughter can position herself for an R.A. job later on by earning the best grades she can and involving herself in campus activities, you could reap the benefits as early as sophomore year, depending on her college’s R.A. policies. Some colleges offer other campus positions that also provide a free room. I met a young woman at Tulane last spring who got her housing for free. She wasn’t an R.A. … I forget what she actually did … but, whatever it was, it came with a lovely single room.</p>
<p>Congrats to your daughter for her acceptance and to you for the wise planning that helped to garner it.</p>
<p>Ms. Rubenstone,
Thank you very much for a very speedy and informative response. I feel very much “on the same page” as you. I like your ideas. Why, I had even forgotten that I was an RA back in the day! I received a cozy (small) but free room myself, and had the pleasure of consoling lonely lost freshman. Thank you for reminding me of that avenue. I also recall scrubbing pots on the graveyard shift at school, AND getting to take home leftovers for lunch the next day! You’re right – many opportunities to save on room and board. </p>
<p>I’ll look at Fastweb. </p>
<p>(Typing on the computer in the library at Alma Mater U. right now! Just dropped off daughter for her “welcome Early Decision students” day. Wow, this campus has changed in 30 years! Very proud to bring daughter her today!) </p>
<p>Again, many thanks.
-Ed</p>
<p>Thanks for the kudos, Ed. </p>
<p>Re the pot-scrubbing: If your daughter didn’t apply for financial aid she may not have the opportunity to do this sort of work since it is usually earmarked for work-study students who are offered the job hours as part of their financial aid packages. </p>
<p>But many campuses offer work opportunities that are open to all, especially those who know where to look. For instance, when I was at Smith, there was a “Spot Job” bulletin board that listed temporary paid jobs such as stuffing envelopes for a campus event or putting down a special floor in the theater for a dance concert. The Spot Job bulletin board was also available to professors seeking house-sitters, babysitters, etc. I imagine that such bulletin boards have long been replaced by electronic alternatives, and I also realize that your daughter will have to stuff a lot of envelopes to earn what a merit scholarship might provide. But, even so, you may want to help her determine if there are jobs on campus that are easy for students to land, even if they’re not through work-study.</p>