Full Scholarship vs. Better School

Paying for College
1

<p>I have been having this fight with my parents for a while, and was looking for the advice of some outside sources:</p>

<p>I recently found out that I was admitted to the University of Pittsburgh's Honors College, that I received a full-tuition scholarship, and that I was nominated for the Chancellor's Scholarship (full room and board, $500 book scholarship, free food plan, and $2000 for either research or study abroad).</p>

<p>As happy as I was to hear this, my parents were much happier. I know Pitt is a great school, but I would rather go to a school that is higher up on my list:</p>

<p>MIT, Hopkins, Cornell, Harvard, Stanford, U Penn, UC Berkely, Wash U</p>

<p>I know that there is a much less chance of me getting scholarships to any of these places (assuming I even get accepted). My argument is that I put in all the hard work in high school believing I could go to one of these more prestigious schools. My parents believe that Pitt is a great school, it is now free, and I will be a superstar there (compared to the other schools, where it is almost impossible to be a superstar compared to everybody else).</p>

<p>What kind of recommendations can you give my family and I?</p>

<p>Do those other schools give a lot of scholarship money?</p>

<p>If we called and said that I have a full scholarship somewhere else, do you think there is a chance they could give me a few thousand dollars or something?</p>

<p>Thanks for your help!!!</p>

2

<p>can we see some of your stats</p>

3

<p>MIT, Hopkins, Cornell, Harvard, Stanford, U Penn, UC Berkely, Wash U</p>

<p>Most of those schools do NOT give merit scholarships and they aren’t going to give a flip that you got a good scholarship at Pitt. ALL of the students at those top schools can get big merit scholarships at various schools.</p>

<p>I see that you’re out of state for Berkeley…Unless your parents are willing to pay $50k per year for you to go there, take it off your list. It doesn’t give OOS students aid to help pay the costs.</p>

<p>What are your stats?</p>

<p>What is your likely major?</p>

<p>*My parents believe that Pitt is a great school, it is now free, *</p>

<p>Well, it’s not free yet. You haven’t won the free ride yet. </p>

<p>If you don’t like Pitt that much, you need to apply to some other schools that will give you big merit.</p>

4

<p>*I recently started my Senior year at a public school in the suburbs of Philadelphia.
Here are my stats:</p>

<p>Rank: 1/714
GPA: weighted - 4.45; unweighted - 4.00
Ethnicity: white male (if that matters)
SAT: M 800 CR 710 W 700
ACT: 32
SAT II: Chem - 730, Bio M - 800, Math 2 - 700</p>

<p>engineering major*</p>

5

<p>Rank: 1/714
GPA: weighted - 4.45; unweighted - 4.00
Ethnicity: white male (if that matters)
SAT: M 800 CR 710 W 700
ACT: 32
SAT II: Chem - 730, Bio M - 800, Math 2 - 700</p>

<p>APs:
Euro - 4
Bio - 5
US - 5
Eng Comp - 5
Physics C, US Gov, Eng Lit, Chem (taking honors class but preparing myself for AP test), Calc AB (my school doesn’t offer BC but I may self study for it) - taking this year</p>

<p>EC’s
VP of National Honors Society
VP of nature club (my school always wins local Envirothon)
Future Problem Soving Team Captain - came in 3rd in states freshman year
1st Chair Tenor Sax Jazz Ensemble + Symphonic Band, 2nd Chair in Wind Ensemble, Recognized as outstanding Musician in National Competition
Student Leader in Marching Band
Model UN
World Affairs Club
Mathletes (one of best on team, we do not compete in any major competitions, just local)
Foreign Language Club
Science Club (will be competing in Science Olympiads in March)
Environmental Action Club
Jr National Honors Society</p>

<p>Community Service
Aid for Friends
JRA (Jewish Relief Agency) - will soon receive recognition for continual participation
Arrange ensemble of friends to play at a retirement home regularly
Tutor
Clean up highway with Environmental Action Club</p>

<p>Classes
All highest levels possible. My school does not allow AP’s until 10th grade, where Euro is the only option. 3 is the max in 11th, and my school does not offer AP Chem (the equivalent is Honors Chem 2, but I will be taking the AP test).</p>

<p>Summers
7-11 for 3 years (boss loved me)
Research at Fox Chase Cancer Center through highly selective Student Scientist Program</p>

<p>Recommendations
One from my research mentor at Fox Chase (will be supplemental).
One from my current AP Gov teacher who also runs Scholars Bowl, which I was in last year, and is a co-advisor for Honor Society, which I am VP of.
One from my Physics teacher last year.</p>

6

<p>

</p>

<p>As stated above, as an OOS student, UCB will cost you 50k/yr. Of these schools, only WUSTL & JHU have any merit scholarships. The others only give need based FA, so will you qualify for substantial FA? Have your parents run Federal and Institutional FA calculators?</p>

7

<p>Yea UCB was kind of just thrown in at the end, it was never really on my list until a few weeks ago.</p>

<p>I’m applying to 2 of Wash U’s scholarships, but even if I get them, I’m not sure how much they will be for. Of all the schools I am applying to, I think Hopkins has the best program and I pretty much love everything about it, so if I get any kind of money I will probably go there.</p>

<p>About need based, I don’t think I’m going to get anything. In fact, I think the people looking at my financial aid applications may laugh at it because my parents have so much money in investments and what not. If I do get anything, it will be VERY little.</p>

8

<p>The schools you have mentioned all have large endowments and are pretty generous in aid. If your family doesn’t need aid, then there should be no choice between Pitt and these other schools… just go to the better school. But if you do need aid many of these schools will take care of you and you’ll be left with little to pay for after college. Apply and see, they wont take away the scholarship from you by the time u hear back from all those schools.</p>

9

<p>To tell you the truth…WashU tends to use its scholarships to target URMs and other highly desirable students. A white kid from PA with good but not top stats is not likely going to get merit from WashU.</p>

<p>Anyway…if your parents are going to pressure you to take the big merit because they don’t want to cash out their investments, then you REALLY need to apply to other schools that will give you big merit…so you’ll have a choice. Plus, you have no idea whether you’ll get into those top schools.</p>

<p>If you don’t LOVE UPitt, you need other options that you will love.</p>

<p>Have your parents said how much they’llpay each year? If they have NO INTENTION of paying $55k+ per year, then those top schools won’t be an option. Realistically, many parents won’t cash out investments when there are less expensive but good options on the table.</p>

10

<p>*If your family doesn’t need aid, then there should be no choice between Pitt and these other schools… just go to the better school. *</p>

<p>I don’t think the issue is whether the family “needs” aid. I think the issue is that the parents may refuse to spend investment money to pay for the “better” school.</p>

11

<p>What are the other colleges/unis going to give you that UPitt won’t give you academically? What is different about the other colleges that you like better than UPitt? As a parent, and like yours, I would be weighing the cost/value benefit. If you were mine I would ask for a much better defined argument why the extra dollars should be paid to send you somewhere else and I would expect a stronger argument than you feel you deserve to go to A, B or C. You’ll need to define why those other colleges are a better choice I suspect and you’ll need to get accepted and you’ll need to understand the costs of the other colleges/unis. Unless your parents are “into” car stickers, prestige might not be a good enough reason. Are they forbidding you to apply or are they telling you that finances are going to a strong consideration and you need to wrap your head around the possibility that you might be attending UPitt? You’ve been offered free tuition and you are being considered for research and other extras at a very good school… those are difficult hurdles for many, many parents to set aside.</p>

12

<p>I think it’s great that you worked your butt off in high school. You’ve done such a great job that you’ve been rewarded with a great opportunity at U. Pitt.
With that said, I think you should still apply to those schools mentioned(with possibly the exception of Berkeley-I’d replace it with a school like USC that does offer merit aid for out of state students-it’s a Private school), and then start to worry about finances once you compare merit/financial aid packages from the schools that admit you.
Also, if one of the reasons you were interested in Berkeley is because of California, you should take a look at Harvey Mudd College. I know they have merit awards and they’re a good engineering-science college. [Scholarships</a> & Grants](<a href=“http://www.hmc.edu/admin/finaid/grants.html#hmcmerit]Scholarships”>http://www.hmc.edu/admin/finaid/grants.html#hmcmerit)</p>

<p>You might not be able to envision this now, but having the financial freedom to do whatever you want, and not have to be forced to take the first job you get after undergrad just to start paying back loans, will be a huge plus. Comparatively speaking, you’d even save more money going to Pitt and then Harvard/MIT or wherever for a Masters program, than simply going straight to one of those schools straight from undergrad.</p>

13

<p>ferrariman,</p>

<p>Let’s peer into my magic 8 ball. Damn! Says “Try again later”.</p>

<p>Seriously, looking into the future, it seems likely to me that you will pursue graduate education (yes, that word ‘assume’). If that is indeed the case, is it wise to spend $50k a year on an undergraduate education at a big name school when you can save $200k by going to a good school? Most folks recommend not pursuing a graduate degree at the same school that you got your undergraduate degree from. At the end of your education, when you go to find a job, which degree will mean more, the undergraduate or graduate? Unless your parents are Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, or Gates, you might find them coming up a little short when it’s time for graduate school. By all means, pursue your dream schools and see what comes your way. You never know, you might get some merit aid or a relative that thinks you hung the moon might offer to pay for that sheepskin from the dream school.</p>

<p>My son finds himself in a similar circumstance as you. I do hope he gets admitted to his dream school because he, like you, has worked very hard the past four years. I’m hoping that we get to sit down and make those tough decisions in the spring. Unless our financial situation changes, he may have to shoulder much of the debt to attend his dream school. The reality is that there will be much less financial stress on our family if he goes somewhere on a full ride. We might then be able to help him purchase a car or help him some with other aspects of school without undue strain.</p>

<p>Issues regarding finances are sticky. My advice is to continue to pursue your dream schools. If you don’t get accepted, then the discussion is moot. If you do, well, then you’ve got options. In the meantime, I would encourage you to seek all the scholarship opportunities you can find locally and nationally. I would explain to your parents that you understand that your dream schools would represent a significant financial burden to them and ask them how much they would be willing/able to cover if you still wanted to go there. </p>

<p>Regardless, because of your hard work you have earned an opportunity that few people get the chance to have. Enjoy your senior year and relax whenever you can. You’ve got lots of options and none of them suck. ;-)</p>

14

<p>Just for your information, there are obviously other good students that have made the same decision to go to Pitt. The average Pitt honors eligible CR+M SAT score, which is 19% of Pitt’s overall incoming class, is 1457. That fits into the average CR+M (score ranges averaged from their 2009-10 CDS) SATs of the other schools on your list in the following way:</p>

<p>Harvard: 1475
MIT: 1465
Wash U: 1460
Pitt Honors: 1457
Stanford: 1440
U Penn: 1440
Hopkins: 1400
Cornell: 1395
UC Berkeley: 1350
Pitt overall: 1265</p>

<p>Now, that isn’t quite a fair thing to compare, because a lot more goes into admissions and enrollment decisions, like academics and environment, but it does suggest that there were over 700 students with SAT scores in a comparable range to some other top schools choosing to take the merit aid and attend Pitt this year. I don’t know if that helps or not.</p>

15

<p>It won’t cost 50,000 plus a year though! These schools give a lot of aid. It may be 20,000 a year after financial aid. Before you got news of the possibility of a scholarship to Pitt, I’m sure your parents were preparing to send you away to college. They most likely have money saved up to pay for your college costs. Another consideration is if you want to go to graduate school. If you do then go to Pitt and use the money your parents have to go to a strong graduate program.</p>

16

<p>Passing up a free ride at a good school like Pitt would be a huge mistake. Why spend >$150,000 when you don’t have to? Trust me, once you get your first job no one cares at all where your undergrad degree came from. I’ve interviewed and hired 100’s of college grads. It is not a factor. </p>

<p>Graduate school is another matter. Save your money for that. There is not even a decision to be made here.</p>

17

<p>I’ll be blunt, you may not even be competitive for admission at some of the colleges on your list unless you can raise your SAT scores. You’d need close to perfect scores for merit at places like Hopkins or Mudd. These awards go to kids at the very top of the applicant pool. Think about why you even have some of these colleges on your list–what kind of engineering do you want to do? Is the UG program going to be any better at these schools than at Pitt? Go someplace with a strong program that will not cost your parents $250K. You will get the same or even a better education without the hefty payout. Look through the engineering thread and revise your list. Check out places like UDel for Chem Engineering. Be aware that even engineering grads from big name colleges are not all getting jobs these days. Look into the career placement results for engineering majors from some of these colleges before you assume they are worth full freight.</p>

18

<p>Did you apply to UDel for ChemE? They offered a full tuition scholarship for my son but you have to be in the top 125 or so applicants. They invite those students to a weekend visit including interviews. They offer full-rides to the top 10 or so and everyone else gets the full-tuition scholarship. DS chose Pitt over UDel and hasn’t regretted it. There are plenty of opportunities to do research and participate in the Coop program. </p>

<p>Is it really worth it to spend $200k on an undergraduate engineering degree? It is something you and your parents have to decide.</p>

19

<p>The most useful thread for you to read is <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later.html&lt;/a&gt; Yes, psych_ probably didn’t have the major that you plan, and yes, he/she probably didn’t go to Pitt, but he/she does give a fairly complete report of what saving that kind of money has meant in his/her life.</p>

<p>Wishing you all the best.</p>

20

<p>Two things that all center around doing some additional thinking and some additional discussions with parents over the next few months.</p>

<p>1- The question isn’t whether those schools are “better” . . . it’s whether they are a better fit for you. That includes academics, size, social scene, location, etc. It also includes whether you would thrive better in the top 25% or the bottom 25% (figuratively speaking) at your school. Some kids like the challenge of being with kids that are smarter/more accomplished than them, and others prefer to be the proverbial big fish in the pond. Example: kid of a friend deliberately went for a “lesser” school because she wanted to be first in line for all the research/fellowship/intern opportunties. Because she has taken advantage of those opportunities the educational experience she has is richer and better for her career than what she would have had at a “better” school. So . . where are you in that spectrum? Stepping away from whether these schools are generically better, which are better fits for you, and why?</p>

<ol>
<li>It would be interesting to detach your parents from the “which school” conclusion and have a discussion about the level of support that they are willing to provide. (One parent might be more helpful than the other in taking this approach.) The pitch for that discussion would go something like this: “I’m going to be getting acceptances from schools along with aid offers and before more of these start rolling in I’d like to get some idea of what level of support you are willling to provide for me per year for college.” They might provide a range (say, 15-20k per year) or a number or they might refuse to tell you. In any case it’s worth the effort to try to have that discussion (over time . . . it might take weeks to talk this through.) What we told our kid was that we could go up to 25k per year maximum; anything over that amount was subject to additional discussion. Your parents may not want to cede that much autonomy to you (e.g., “here’s 20k per year and you can go where you want”) but it is an opportunity for them to say what their limits are BEFORE all the offers are in.</li>
</ol>

<p>P.S. Your choice will NOT be 50k vs. free ride (whcih is why a post like #16 only somewhat useful.) You will get various offers, wil probably need a spreadsheet to track them all . . . which is why the discussion of what your parents are comfortable giving would be helpful.</p>

<p>Good luck!!!</p>