<p>I am a vegetarian and I am also on PETA's email list. However, through out the last few months, I'm sort of getting wary of their tactics.
If there was a starving person in a famine, and they had a pig in their backyard, i'm not going to stop them because it's bad for the animal. Also,i don't believe anyone in a developed country needs to wear fur or leather to survive and thus it's all for vanity and that is not only unnecessary it is also just plain cruel towards the animals. however, in places where people need to kill an animal and skin it to survive and use it to keep warm, then i'm okay with that. THe whole 'it's a human's right to eat/wear lesser animals because that's the ways of nature' is BS because most of the world is beyond the point where they must do that in order to survive, there are plenty of alternatives.</p>
<p>brain stem only serves the basic, automatic function of living. cerebrum (sp) is where the higher activity is concentrated.</p>
<p>without the cerebrum(sp) you are as good as dead.</p>
<p>the fact of the matter is that organizations like PETA are wasting their time because the people who matter in this world (rich people) will always have their way and walk right over a silly organization like PETA. If JLo wants to wear a fur coat is it her responsibility to find out how the animal she is wearing was killed appropriatly? no. Its her job to make sure she looks good wearing the coat.</p>
<p>You people seem to miss the point. No one's talking about PETA. No one's talking about the pros or cons of killing animals for fur/food/ whatever. That's a separate discussion. But these animals are being skinned alive. </p>
<p>If you're going to kill an animal, can it at least be done humanely (and you know what i mean...i don't want any of this "what is humane?" stuff).</p>
<p>You're going to make me believe that forcing these Chinese bastards to buy an electric rod to kill the animals first would be imposing an undue hardship upon them??</p>
<p>and now you are talking about chinese bastard. I am Chinese, so please don't insult my country of origin. </p>
<p>yes, it will cause undue hardship, especially when they can't afford to buy a rod like that because they are getting paid in cents per day for what they do. It's not them who's getting the profit. </p>
<p>So you say that's in humane. Have you been in a country like that? Let me tell you. I was born in there. Back in the sixties there were people starving to death on the street. </p>
<p>So animals are being skinned alive, how sad. But have you seen a person being skinned alive? Have you seen a woman raped then got a knife sticked in her private parts? Have you seen soldiers with their heads blown off? Well, I have seen those, and compare to them, those who cry about animals suffering really make me want to laugh. It's not that I don;'t care about animal suffering, but at least animals don't know. If you take away their (people) trade, they will starve to death.(which is more inhumane?) I hope you believe it </p>
<p>It's a different country, don't force your idealogy upon them. If you haven't seen how they live, don't call them bastards.</p>
<p>in summary: those people rely on their trade for food, make cents per day. It's the companies that manufacture those fur coat made all the money. If you gonna attack someone, don't attack those who bought shirts (so? they have money), nor those who skin animals (they can;t live without it). </p>
<p>attack the middleman.</p>
<p>It's horrible.... but I can't say that it is our world's largest crisis. We have alot... more important... things to worry about. I have, and wear furs. I was given all of the furs I have and know that they are all vintage and were not created during the hype of the fur trade(today). My great grandparents were dealers in the fur trade and this is how I've gotten all of the stuff I have. I don't feel bad, but I don't feel pride either... I think it's kind of ignorant in todays day of amazing created fabrics which far out perform furs and are much cheaper too. </p>
<p>...lets not attack eachother. We're all just trying to survive. They only provide what the market demands.</p>
<p>I think the general point those of us who do not mind fur is that you simply cannot put the lives of animals on the same level as the lives of people. Crypto, when you equate fur manufacturers with tobacco execs, you are saying that an animal life is of equal value as a human life, and that's what I disagree with. And when you seem to want to put thousands of people out of work for some animals, and when you call people you don't know "pathetic," we definately have some issues. </p>
<p>And please don't pull the "what if I skinned your cat" argument, sometimes it does come down to looks. I've seen minks, they're mean little bastards. Let's just call it even hypocrisy (this point, and you eating meat). </p>
<p>And again, the point I'm trying to make is that animals are not purposely, malicously tortured for the sake of being tortured. Just because the animal dies does not mean they were explicitly tortured. You did not refer to cows/pigs/etc as being tortured, therefore I know you can distinguish between the two. </p>
<p>You cannot force ideology upon people...you can try to pursuade and convince, but to call people who work in a trade demanded by the market "pathetic" and imply that their horrible people, and attempt to destroy the livlihood of people working in the industries you oppose is "inhumane."</p>
<p>
[quote]
brain stem only serves the basic, automatic function of living. cerebrum (sp) is where the higher activity is concentrated.</p>
<p>without the cerebrum(sp) you are as good as dead.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The brain stem manages the most basic and most important functions of life: motor control, nervepathways, and respiratory/cardiac control. The destruction of this is the only guarantee of instant incapacitation and death.. </p>
<p>The cerebelleum controls coordination and voluntary movement, but its destruction can still lead to involuntary muscle spasms and pain registration.</p>
<p>of course you still have pain registration, but that's a pain registration without its meaning.</p>
<p>you won't feel it anymore, because YOURSELF is gone with that cerebelleum.</p>
<p>there was this school (i think University of Pittsburg) did an experiment on cats. what they did was to take out those cat's cerebellum (exquivalent of taking a guy's brain out but leave the brain stem in tact). the cat actually was still functioning pretty well, and then</p>
<p>the researchers donated those cats to some unknown families, and those families don't even know that their pets will NEVER learn their names.</p>
<p>Damn...i'm not even one of those cry-for-anything people...but looking at this board...i'm not surprised how some of this stuff is going on...</p>
<p>I can kill all of you and it wont even matter cuz <em>hey</em> theres "worse things in the world going on." </p>
<p>"They only provide what the market demands"</p>
<p>Unfortunately. Maybe after more people know this, demand will go down. Then maybe we'll have some civilized behavior. I like how China is booming economically because of their total disregard for any regulation. They steal intellectual property from other countries. They don't regulate any activity until reprimanded for it. I don't care if you take offense cuz its your country, its the truth.</p>
<p>oh it's the truth, where is the truth man? where did you hear it from? WHAT intellectual property did chinese steal? </p>
<p>Now you start to sound like a childish racist.</p>
<p>sure, you can kill us, but we are human, and those are animals.</p>
<p>I try to uphold the decency of this board and refrain myself from posting the link with pics of Chinese women that were raped then killed brutally during WWII by the Japanese.</p>
<p>Why don't you start boycotting Japanese consumer electronics because Mitsubushi's Zero killed many US airmen or their carrier bombed Pearl Harbor? You think those are more humane somehow?</p>
<p>I say it again, bigjake, those chinese make ten cents per day doing their job. It's the AMERICAN fur company that's making all the money. If you are going to call them bastards, sure, go ahead, call all the Chinese bastards. You may want to take off all your clothes as well because most of them either come from China or sweat shop in USA staffed by poor Chinese immigrants.</p>
<p>So you are talking about Chinese being uncivilized?</p>
<p>We had a flagship that displaces 20,000 tons of water in 1428. That ship is about as big as a modern aircraft carrier and could take over any country if it wanted.</p>
<p>Chinese nations were created 5000 years ago, before western civilization.</p>
<p>And now, we have a major amount of Chinese American working on high tech industry here in silicon valley. </p>
<p>You are calling enginners who brought you the best gaming video cards, soldiers who fight in iraq for our country, and your future peers in college uncivilized bastards.</p>
<p>Now I wonder where are you from.</p>
<p>First of all, i don't have to respond to anything after the first sentence because it is all irrelevant to the subject at hand. I don't agree with your "this is bad...but THIS was worse...so lets forget the first" philosophy. </p>
<p>I will address the intellectual property. Right now, China is rapidly entering the automotive industry. There was an article recently in US News about how the new Chinese SUVs bear striking resemblence to the latest GM and Chrysler models. The Chinese government did not respect the international patents, and the US is not importing Chinese cars. </p>
<p>You're right...i was wrong about generalizing. I have nothing against Chinese Americans. But this stuff is sick and I can't believe how ready you are to defend it. If you don't have the electric rod...shoot the damn animal in the head at least...they dont use the head in the coat. Do Chinese have guns??</p>
<p>First of all, Blackdream, with all due respect, you're starting to sound like a childish reactionary. Chinese companies have an awful record with intellectual property violations. I'm too lazy to go find supporting evidence right now, but if push comes to shove I'd be more than happy to.</p>
<p>Second, the fact that Japanese have also commited atrocities doesn't absolve the Chinese of responsibility for anything that they do. It's not a "who's worse" issue. Any group of people who do sick s h a t should be condemned, whether they be Chinese, Japanese, American, or whatever. Disagree if you like, but torturing animals for fur constitutes sick s h a t in my book. I don't care how poor you are. Maybe you do need to feed your family or whatever, and that's fine, but I still think it's sick. American companies that back/support/fund this kind of thing are equally culpable and equally depraved.</p>
<p>Honestly, get over yourself. You can still love and respect your country and/or culture while accepting that everything they do isn't exactly legit (morally, legally, or otherwise).</p>
<p>Anyway, i digress; back to the original topic....that video is so f ' i n g gross I can't stand it. First of all, why would they need to keep the animal alive to skin it? That's just perverse and disgusting. People who do twisted s h i t like that should be shot.</p>
<p>I think the real problem (especially in this country) is that people are so utterly detached from real violence of any kind. I believe that EVERY high school student should be made to watch videos like this one and some of the PETA ones (ie Meet Your Meet) so they can REALLY make informed moral decisions. As it is we go into a boutique or grocery store and we see the fur coat or packaged meat or whatever and we don't give a single thought to how it gets there. I am 100% sure that if people saw the brutality that animals were subjected to they would think twice. If Joe Farmer has to spend a little bit more to make his operation more humane, then too d a m n bad.</p>
<p>I think this applies to human issues too, btw. Notice how we never ever see any of the really violent war images from Iraq. I can't believe that people are outraged that Al-Jazeera shows dead civilians and such on their station. If Americans actually SAW the senseless carnage and devastation brought about by war, if they saw a 5 year-old girl bleeding to death and her mother shrieking, helpless to do anything to save her, maybe we wouldn't be so gung-ho about "democratizing" the world.</p>
<p>I mean, we've gotten into our heads that 9/11 was somehow the most terrible thing to ever happen to the world, and that it somehow gives us the moral authority to kill indescriminately. How soon we forget the genocides in Rwanda (800,000 dead in just 3 months!), former Yugoslavia (a quarter of a million killed before it even became an issue on the American radar), even more current ones like in Sudan. The average American is probably barely even aware that these tradgedies OCCURED, let alone incensed enough to really care.</p>
<p>I know I'm just babbling, but the real problem is that so many people just don't value LIFE, human or animal. It's just so so so sad and sick.</p>
<p>GOOD JOB MAN...thats what im trying to do...i saw this video and i was like "wait a minute...how come people don't know about this.." </p>
<p>So i posted it on this site...i posted it on my AIM profile...i wrote a letter to 60 Minutes...do the same...show this to people you know and tell them to show it to others...this is how stuff like this gets stopped...</p>
<p>oh, great, write it to everyone. As if you can stop something that's going on in China by 60 minutes.</p>
<p>this is a common mistakes a lot of American make -- I am an American and I can stop everything that's going on in this world. </p>
<p>Sure, go donate your money to those improverished children and stop buying fur coats, or maybe stage a protest in front of those coat companies.</p>
<p>But don't call those honest working men bastards. They are not.</p>
<p>You see, I am a very liberal person, but I think there is a limit to liberalness. I am all for something that benefit the human kind, but animals? We kill animals, does that make us toreturer? We shot them, we run over them, etc.</p>
<p>oh about intellectual property, why don't you go online and type in the word.</p>
<p>B1b and Tu160, see how much they are similar? </p>
<p>What about B2 and that German flying wing? </p>
<p>What about M60 and MG42? </p>
<p>What about M8 and G36?</p>
<p>The funniest comment you can get from a person is "Oh, see, that car looks like the other car so that company must have stolen it."</p>
<p>You think GMs are stupid to let everyone steal their trade secret? Let me tell you about something, China took 20 years to try to steal the Rolls Royce Spey turbofan and it didn't even work. Chinese aren't that good at stealing stuff.</p>
<p>Additionally, I am against such an action. But you gotta look into the context.</p>
<p>Human ALWAYS > animal. There are dogs with fancy fashion clothing while some people can't even afford cloth. That's not right.</p>
<p>i am out. I feel that being a liberal person myself, I shouldn't flame you guys (who I feel are also liberal).</p>
<p>See thats where your wrong. I'm actually a conservative. I told you i'm not against killing of animals. But like i have said many times, this is inhumane. There is no way to justify it. </p>
<p>I don't understand you're human > animal argument. You're right, but what does that mean? That humans can do anything they want with animals? If you think this way, there's something wrong with you. </p>
<p>"Honest working men"? I will never see them that way. They are sick bastards. I think we're done trying to respect each others opinions here. Maybe your blind devotion to China keeps you from admitting when things are wrong.</p>
<p>And, see, i'm conservative...its funny how i take a stance completely different from you. I don't feel obliged to help the human race. I feel obliged to take care of myself. Because if everyone took care of themselves, we wouldn't have problems. Humans are capable of taking care of themselves. Animals, in this predicament, are not. And thats why that video makes me sick.</p>
<p>Animals are not capable of taking care of themselves?</p>
<p>Wow that's a first.</p>
<p>So I have blind devotion to Chinese? Do you even know a Chinese? If you are living in an all white community, you do not deserve to call them "sick bastards".</p>
<p>I just think it's stupid to state that skinning an animal alive is not better or worse than cutting a live person open for medical experiments. </p>
<p>You see, after all your franatic attempts to protect animals, people start changing their subjects.</p>
<p>No one care about the criminals right? No PETA? Ok let's use them as our experimental subjects.</p>
<p>The thing that sickens me most, is that some of you care about animal more than you care about your fellow human beings.</p>
<p>I am just amazed at how utterly incapable you seem of understanding ANYTHING that i am stating.</p>
<p>When in THE HELL did i say that "skinning an animal alive is not better or worse than cutting a live person open for medical experiments"?</p>
<p>I really just shouldn't talk to you. You display no logic in your arguments. In layman's terms for you, i am saying that "skinning animals alive is BAD." </p>
<p>In reply, you are telling me that cutting a live person open for medical experiments" is worse. I will be up there advocating against BOTH. You seem to find it necessary to select one over the other. </p>
<p>And i assure you that criminals are not being cut open in the United States...or in Europe...or in any civilized area...if this is being done, which i actually have no idea what you're talking about, it is being done in China...</p>
<p>One way or another...this stuff is going to get known...and when it does...those Chinese bastards can either rack up a couple of pennies and buy a gun or they can starve for all i care...i would have killed them myself. I'm not a pathetic little liberal screaming for stupid animal rights. I'm ****ed off at how many times stuff like this has happened in history- how it is still happening. Give me a gun and put me on one of those farms. I'll solve the problem of animals being skinned alive AND Chinese workers making a living. </p>
<p>And yes i do know Chinese people.</p>
<p>wow..this is the first time..i can really agree with u jake...not only the chinese ppl but whoever is doing this should suffer..beeches..a job doesnt justify the crap they did in that video...</p>