Furnishing dorm common rooms - hidden expense and socioeconomic stratifier

Parents Forum
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<p>SV2, the first article raises a number of important points. The second one is outdated. </p>

<p>Nceph, I don't know what to tell you. I can tell you I know students of all income levels at Princeton who are very happy and who are fully participating in campus life, including the eating clubs. I have seen Princeton change dramatically over the past four years. However, to be fair I will tell you that the current undergraduate student government president, who is an African-American on financial aid, has stated publicly that he did not join an eating club for financial reasons. I believe that the university is not addressing this problem because by creating a four-year residential college system it is looking to marginalize the eating clubs rather than change them. </p>

<p>For you parents of potential applicants, that is the bottom line: if your students do not want to join Princeton's eating clubs, they can dine and socialize in the excellent residential college dining halls and facilities, just as Yalies do today. And they will still have access to the eating clubs' parties on weekends.</p>

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<p>I'm reading this thread having just come back from dropping off my S at his freshman suite at Princeton. The common room is full of desks. The one $20. chair one of them bought is the only other furniture they expect to have in the room - no rugs, no couches, no TV - these guys don't even have a phone. I was actually surprised by the LACK of furniture being brought into the dorms. I've seen much better equipped rooms at other less exclusive schools. </p>

<p>While there are clearly some very rich kids walking around, everyone seems pretty friendly. Most of the students seem to have come from quite a distance and don't have a lot of belongings. The freshman week of hiking, canoeing, and camping with just the supplies they can carry on their backs seems to break down a lot of social barriers. It's amazing what can happen to a group of people who spend a week together without soap or a shower.</p>

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<p>I live in a college town -- and what shocks me are the CARS. College kids driving brand-new BMWs. The disparity between these kids and the kids on financial aid is glaring, to say the least. To paraphase mom above, even if I were Mrs. Bill Gates, my kid would not be driving a $40,000 car in college.</p>

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<p>Williams tried the "separate but equal" approach for about 30 years. They built a student union and created a "club", the Garfield Club, for those who couldn't afford (or were denied entrance) into the fraternities. It was actually rather posh. But, eventually, they decided that the value of the Williams education, including the complete mixing of students of all economic classes, was compromised beyond what they felt was optimal, especially when allegiances to the frats almost rivalled those to the College itself. Finally, they simply barred students from joining fraternities at all, which basically forced the frats to sell the houses back to the college. It was a very messy process, and to this day, 40 years later, there are certain fraternities that exist underground, as "literary societies". It wasn't a matter of students being friendly or not; the question was whether the residential environment was conducive to the best quality education the institution could afford.</p>

<p>Yeah. When we went college shopping, we noticed the cars, too.</p>

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<p>When I rented my first apartment, we had to get furniture, dishes, and all that stuff. Somehow, the bulk (roughly 90-95%) of that burden fell on me. I got hand-me-down dishes from my parents; bought silverware; got a used table from an aunt; finagled an end table and a 15-year-old sofa from the 'rents; purchased, with my own money, pots, pans, spatulas, sponges, rugs, glasses, mugs, lamps, dish rack, trash buckets, Swiffers, placemats, extra dishes because we kept running out, etc. No joke, everything in that house was mine. I didn't care - my attitude was that I would drag it somewhere else with me, and it was worth it to not be sitting on the floor and eating off of paper plates. </p>

<p>Apparently, that wasn't enough for my roomies. There were four of us and there was very little space to sit in our living room - my couch that sat three and an armchair donated from my family. We agreed to get a futon and a TV - which I paid for. I said that I didn't want to keep either one (never watch TV and already had said couch). Well, my roomies (2 of 3) refused to help pay. At the end of the year, I tossed both on the curb and was out $100. My roomies were ticked at me for asking them to share the loss.</p>

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<p>Should add that, aside from hand-me-down donations, I used my own money - from working 50-60 hour weeks! - to furnish the apartment. My three roommates did not work but their parents gave them spending money. Just thought that if we needed stuff for the apt that would end up getting thrown out after a year, then we should have all split the loss equally. There are ways to do this - everyone can chip and and you can agree (beforehand) that anyone can buy the other roomies out at the end of the year if they want the stuff, but, if not, then the loss is split equally. There should be SOME effort to chip in - not talking Bloomingdale's here, just yard-sale stuff. Lot of money for one person, not a lot when you divide it up four ways.</p>

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<p>btw, its not 100% financial reasons that the usg vice president did not join an eating club-- the colleges messed up last year with rcas and eating clubs, and so many seniors this year (including the president's roommate) dropped out of the eating clubs when they wanted to be rcas (the college was going to double charge them for meal plans, which while i guess is a financial reason, is really the fault of the college, which is now fixed)</p>

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<p>For reasons that aren't altogether clear now, my son didn't consider Princeton (though he most likely wouldn't have been accepted anyway). I think, for us, it was a combination of too much Fitzgerald and my husband’s 40 year objective of putting oceans between him and his home state. :) Subsequently, and from afar, my opinion of Princeton has improved quite a lot as I’ve learned more about its philosophy and environment and if we had it to do over again, I’d recommend that my son take a hard look. The eating clubs were always a mystery to me. After reading "The Rule of Four" I think I understand and appreciate them better.</p>

<p>When I went to UMich in the 70’s the Greek system was at a low ebb. The independent loner (Anyone remember Signify Nothing sweatshirts?) was supplanted by the hippy horde. After that there was no going back and now at big U’s fraternities/sororities are just one choice of many. At LACs and small colleges a prominent Greek system can be more pervasive. The lack of a Greek system was for my son a plus in his consideration of Williams and Hamilton and conversely a concern at Kenyon. The theme houses at Wesleyan were, like Princeton’s eating clubs, a bit of a mystery. </p>

<p>What amazes me is that what was considered elite forty-fifty years ago, literally White/Anglo-Saxon/Protestant + Male + Wealthy, really has evolved into an overwhelming presence of diversity. This is true at selective colleges, at Fortune 500 companies, in government. Could it continue to improve? Are some people still being left out and left behind? Yes and Yes, BUT the progress has been remarkable. Just take a look at the make up of Kennedy’s cabinet versus Bush’s and you see graphically what I mean. (I don’t mean this as a comparison between Democrats and Republicans, but rather as a comment on how the field has opened up for women and ethnic minorities over the past four decades.)</p>

<p>This is the kind of “elite” that I’m glad that my son is being exposed to. Not rich WASPs (yes they are there too) but smart, talented, enthusiastic kids from a wide range of backgrounds. I think it’s exhilarating for the kids, optimistic for the schools and promising for the country. </p>

<p>Common sense and common courtesy are the basis of political correctness. Some people from all socioeconomic strata are woefully lacking in one or the other. Correctness when it reflects ethical and moral values is desirable. It’s when it gets too political – and lacking in common sense – that it grates. It seems to me that we’re talking about communication issues here 9 times out of 10 – whether its shared common rooms, urban apartments or suburban backyards. Some people just refuse to interact in a decent and cooperative manner.</p>

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<p>An acquaintance of mine - I'll call him Tom - attended Princeton back in the '70s on a full scholarship. He says he was accepted at Princeton because he was a talented football player. </p>

<p>Tom's dad was a coal miner in western PA. His large family was very poor. Tom couldn't afford to join an eating club at Princeton, so he took matters into his own hands. He has vivid memories of climbing through the windows at the eating clubs to get food. No one ever said a word to him -- probably because he's a BIG guy -- but many of the kids gave him disgusted looks and refused to have anything to do with him. Anyway, Tom eventually graduated from Princeton (with a full stomach) and went on to get his doctorate from Johns Hopkins.</p>

<p>Tom is now the successful CEO of a well-known biomedical company.</p>

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<p>Many of the eating clubs at Princeton are non-selective (anyone can sign up to join) and this was also true in the '70s. I cannot speak to the relative cost of the eating clubs vs. the University dining halls, however. I also know for a fact that in the '70s the prevailing furniture in common rooms at Princeton was very used furniture, such as couches that none of us, now that we are older, would allow in our homes, very old used refrigerators which were passed from student to student, and similar stuff. If at one time some rooms cost more and were reserved for wealthy students, this practice ended long before the '70s. Rooms were assigned through a room draw system where rising seniors chose first, then juniors, then sophomores. Some of the stories about Princeton being related on this thread are definitely overblown hype.</p>

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<p>"What amazes me is that what was considered elite forty-fifty years ago, literally White/Anglo-Saxon/Protestant + Male + Wealthy, really has evolved into an overwhelming presence of diversity. This is true at selective colleges, at Fortune 500 companies, in government. Could it continue to improve? Are some people still being left out and left behind? Yes and Yes, BUT the progress has been remarkable."</p>

<p>Hear, hear, momrath. I think that to expect colleges to be light-years ahead of the rest of society is naive. Both of my kids assumed that in college they would encounter injustice, just as they had at home. They were not interested in attending an institution that paternalistically appeared to right all wrongs through social engineering and political correctness. They were very turned off by some of the liberal arts colleges and by my own alma mater for this reason. I think one thing students can learn in college is how to analyze historically and politically the blend of justice and progress we see in most situations and how to bring change from the inside.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Many of the eating clubs at Princeton are non-selective (anyone can sign up to join) and this was also true in the '70s. I cannot speak to the relative cost of the eating clubs vs. the University dining halls, however.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>On the Princeton website, the most expensive dining plan costs $4335/year. The eating clubs that list their costs (some of the bicker clubs don't) quote costs of ~$6000-6500. When we toured, the guide said in response to questioning that the difference in cost between the most and least expensive eating clubs was about $2000. This would calculate out to at least a $4000/year difference between the most expensive dining hall option and the most expensive eating club.</p>

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<p>Ramblin,
The three most expensive eating clubs cost around $6500. One that recently redid a room seems to have become the most expensive of the three. That's $2000 more than the meal plan. The others are cheaper. Were you thinking that the others are more expensive? They aren't, except for the one with the new room. I am sure Ivy and Cottage list their fees on the Net in order to work against the rumor mill, which would have you believe they are strictly millionaires' clubs. </p>

<p>Ok, so Princeton's tuition is $31,450. Room is $4,610. And regular board is $4153. That comes to $40,213. As I said, Brown's tuition is $32,264, board $5,498, and board $3,298. That comes to $41,060 -- nearly $1,000 more. And those of you with adolescent boys will appreciate that in an eating club there is snack food available 24/7, no extra charge. Likewise, as I've said, one's entire social life aside from the cultural side. </p>

<p>Btw, so here's what the financial aid allows for expenses per student: "For the 2005-06 academic year the University charges for a resident student are: tuition, $31,450; room, $4,610; and board, $4,153. In addition, we allow $3,212 for books and personal expenses, bringing the total to $43,425, not counting travel expenses which vary based on state (or country) of residence." </p>

<p>If you want to know about an overpriced dining option at Princeton, I'll tell you what it is: the Frist campus center, where the students are supposed to be able to use their dining points and yet are hard-pressed to do so as a result of the high prices.</p>

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<p>two points for those apparently concerned by the price difference between eating club fees and dining hall meal plans:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>eating club fees cover - in addition to food - alcohol and entertainment, formal events, and general upkeep. most of these expenses redound to the benefit not only of club members, but of underclassmen and upperclass non-members. the latter groups, in effect, party at members' expense.</p></li>
<li><p>princeton "provides additional financial aid to upperclassmen/women to cover the difference between club board rates and those of University eating facilities."</p></li>
</ol>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eppf/guide.html#financial%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~ppf/guide.html#financial&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>significantly, that aid - like all financial aid at princeton - comes in the form of grants that need not be repaid, and not loans.</p>

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<p>f. scottie, that must be a new policy, because look at this: <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/aid/pdf/club_0506.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/aid/pdf/club_0506.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>you appear to be right, aparent. i merely assumed (which is always dangerous) that the aid would come, as usual, in the form of grants. still, the main point applies: that financial aid is available for those unable at the time to meet the increased cost of club membership.</p>

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<p>Well, S and suitemates bought themselves "a very nice couch" at the used furniture fair for the princely sum of $130, which they will split among the 5 of them. They still have to decide whether they want a fridge, also from the same source. I don't think Bloomies is going to get their business.</p>

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<p>aparent5, thanks for the detailed figures. Yes, based on what the tour guide said, I was thinking that the more expensive eating clubs might charge ~$8000. The club with the highest cost I've subsequently seen, of those that publicize their fees, is Cottage with fees of $7200 (initiation, board, and social fees). </p>

<p>In any case, I'll be interested in seeing how quickly the new residential colleges get built and changes in the dining/social scene become evident.</p>

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<p>All of the residential colleges but one have already been built. Although they are planning extensive improvements to the dining halls (which are already great in my book), what they're doing is taking several existing colleges and turning them from two- to four-year colleges. Freshmen will have a choice of a two- or four-year college. The one that's under construction is Whitman College, and it's scheduled to be completed sometime in 2007. the clubs are) and go several times a week while others never do. However, I doubt the eating clubs will disappear, because although they may sound exclusive, in fact as a whole they are a very open gathering place. Many students appreciate the fact that, for example, instead of looking for isolated room parties on the weekend, they can go out to the Street (where the clubs are) and find all their friends. The residential college system brings people in each college together, but it's not all that easy to socialize with people from other residential colleges and especially for those from "up campus" and "down campus" to connect; the Street provides an easy place to do that.</p>

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<p>""What amazes me is that what was considered elite forty-fifty years ago, literally White/Anglo-Saxon/Protestant + Male + Wealthy, really has evolved into an overwhelming presence of diversity. This is true at selective colleges, at Fortune 500 companies, in government. Could it continue to improve? Are some people still being left out and left behind? Yes and Yes, BUT the progress has been remarkable."</p>

<p>Yet, the economic stratification of our society continues, as the top becomes richer and ever more isolated compared to the middle and lower classes.</p>

<p>Yes, the elites have done an OK job of increasing ethnic diversity. Heck, you'll even find kids attending Harvard that have Italian last names! But have they achieved any reasonable degree of economic diversity? </p>

<p>Just look at this thread: arguing over whether another $2000 for an eating club is a reasonable expense or not. </p>

<p>I must live on a different planet.</p>