Future Doctor Incomes, the threat of socialized medical care

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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@Jweinst1:
Look. I don’t know you. I don’t know what motivates you. However, based on what you wrote in your original post, I get the impression that your priorities are not a good match for a future career as a physician. That’s just my honest opinion.</p>

<p>Pursuing a career as a medical doctor is all about managing delayed gratification and making sacrifices. In my mind, it’s a calling. My med school friends who are the happiest now (several years after the conclusion of medical training) are the ones who love helping people…and would do it for subsistence pay. For a student at your stage to be asking about physician compensation in the way you have, it’s clear that monetary compensation is important to you. If that’s the case, choose another career. You’ll be much happier. There are better ways to make more money with less effort. Choose a different career, for example, in law, entertainment, or business/finance, that will enable you to send all of your kids to private school without taking out any loans.</p>

<p>FWIW, the way in which you phrased your question rubbed me the wrong way. I don’t believe that paying out-of-pocket for an education at a private college without loans is a reasonable expectation for most people. Affluent parents may be able to choose not to take out loans while sending their kid(s) to private colleges, but most of the middle class won’t have that option. And, to be honest, I see nothing wrong with taking out a modest amount in loans to pay for a college education.</p>

<p>Moreover, I don’t view a private school education as being a “right” for anyone. Private school. Public school. With the proper attitude/initiative/motivation/work ethic, a student can get a great education at either type of institution. I can’t say that I feel sorry for the heme-onc attending who describes her situation (paying for two kids at a private colleges) as “tough.” Many states have excellent flagship universities that present a more affordable option for college. There are many schools that offer significant merit aid. Her kids had options. In essence, she chose her current financial situation. Many people in this world are in a far worse financial situation than this physician.</p>

<p>This notion of physicians or other high-paid professionals having the “right” to make enough money to send all of their kids to private colleges without taking out loans smacks of an attitude of entitlement that I personally find distasteful.</p>

<p>That being said, I’m very sorry about what happened to your father. I can certainly sympathize with your situation and can imagine the effect that the experience had on you and your family.</p>

<p>Best of luck with your future educational endeavors…

I agree with you, dina4119.</p>

<p>When I was interviewing prospective medical students for the admissions committee at my school, I was shocked at the number of applicants who expressed sentiments similar to those of the OP. We would usually end up on that topic after discussing the student’s “possible specialty” and his/her perspective on “changes in the health care system.”</p>

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<p>Well said, Bartleby 007,
IMHO, Medicine has always been a calling. I think the benefits of medicine included the respect of the community and a decent living. It didn’t become very lucrative until the era of insurance, when 3rd party payers separated the doctor from the patient in a business transaction, and large payments became possible. Technology increased the expenses. I won’t go into all the details, but it took many steps with many influences to get to where we are today.
Medicine has been a calling, to the point where the doctor put it above all other things, including time with family. It involved not only delayed gratification during training but throughout life. Prior to the women’s movement, I think it would be fair to say that most physicians were men, and if they were married, had a traditional marriage with the wife taking care of the home and children while the doctor was working long hours. Doctors were compensated, but in addition to that was high job satisfaction.
Today’s medical student has the same kind of calling. However, he, or now she, may also have a working spouse and share child care duties. A salaried position might be exactly what two working parents need. He or she may not earn as high an income as in the past, but if they feel a calling to medicine, job satisfaction will still be high.</p>

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<p>Ok, Thank you for your input. It’s a lot to prioritize after what one really desires from their profession.</p>

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<p>…the first priority in any proffession is to be debt free, which buys you a real freedom</p>

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<p>I am pretty sure the medical malpractice for that doctor you know who makes a salary of $300,000 comes out BEFORE the salary number is set as a business expenses. And ANYONE in the US who makes $300,000 is going to face the same tax bill, even if you are a lawyer or investment banker or whatever.</p>

<p>You don’t need that kind of salary to send your kids to college – but if you want a stay at home spouse, fancy cars, a big house, expensive vacations, and multiple kids at private colleges, then you may “need” to make that much money. You can make a whole lot less, start saving for college the day your kids are born, and still cover private college (I know because I have done it for my kids). So doctors become more like employees, and make $150K vs. $300K… the only reason that would concern me is because it will be so much harder for them to retire their med school debt, and that particular item does not seem fair to me. But regarding whether they can earn a good living in medicine, you don’t need an outrageous salary to live well and send your kids to college.</p>

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<p>Dina4119,</p>

<p>If I was a primary care provider, like a GP or a pediatrician, that might be ok, but I would not choose an intensive specialty like neurosurgery or orthopedic surgery for $80k a year. If a surgeon worked 100 hours a week for 50 weeks a year, this would make 80k go to $15 per hour or less. I also think it would be extremely difficult to pay back student/med school loans with that income, and it would raise serious ethical questions about the under-valuing of highly educated people.</p>

<p>But you do make a very good point though, perhaps i will consider MD/MBA programs for a different route in a medicine career.</p>

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<p>I also apologize for making any incorrect statements about obamacare and socialized medicine. </p>

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<p>It’s actually very clear that that’s what your beliefs on “socialism” are. The 80k a year was a hypothetical to help you gauge whether you truly want to become a doctor or if maybe half of the reason is money. If it’s the latter, your best choice is probably to go into Econ/business.</p>

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<p>I don’t know if I should post on this thread because I am disturbed by several of the comments. The first set of comments had to do with equating Obamacare with socialized medicine. Fortunately someone corrected that. But let me emphasize that again. Obamacare is not a health plan, it is a set of laws. That’s it. Those law tell the insurance companies what the minimum coverages will be. Just like the past laws governed the insurance companies. I have an ACA plan for my own family. We love it. Why? Because it is a private insurance, it is cheaper than what we had, and actually covers what we need. I think the only socialized medicine we have in the US is the military and probably NIH.</p>

<p>The other issue that is disturbing is that the money aspect comes up a lot. I read that no one is here for the money, BUT! That “but” seems to be placed there to forgive so much of the money talk that follows. We advise against going into medicine for the money because the opportunity costs are steep. You give up so much to become a doctor and the process is long! If you went into it for the money, you will find very quickly how frustrating and how depressing your life will be. The money will never and can never obviate that misery.</p>

<p>Incomes have been dropping for decades and that varies depending on the specialties. Most have increased their patient volumes to earn more. While others have found new procedures to increase revenues. The facts are that as the baby boomers become Medicare recipients and our citizens want the “government” to reduce spending, many of our entitlements will take a hit such as Medicare.</p>

<p>I can not predict the future but expect pay to reduce, work to increase and tuition to continue to be outrageous. But don’t change the genuine reason you want to do this, to help people through the prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of illneses.</p>

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<p>Medicare, SS,…etc. is unsustainable in a current form, no matter how you slice it and dice it. Both were designed as a Ponzi schemas with the average “bail” out age of 65. Currently 65 is a new 50 or something… and population is not getting healthier but rather live longer while being pretty sick after certain age and require huge amount care because it does not want to live “healthy” and because drugs prolong the life of a sick body. These are facts. The age of Medicae / SS has to be moved or they both simply will not exist. Average SS recipient receives about 3 times his/her contribution. Ponzi schmas collapse, they cannot go forever, if receiving end is encreasing while contributon are going down (the economy will not improve if forces are in place to hold it back),
Those who wants to try socialism, should have made an individual choice of trying it instead of forcing everybody else around them to march there along with them. Medicine is only one part of it. There are no winners there except those close to the feeder. Just re-read “the Animal Farm” , it is absolutely correct book that reflects the correct reality and written by a genius.</p>

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<p>MiamiDAP, I’m sorry but are you suggesting that the new healthcare laws are “forcing” everybody into socialism? You do know what socialism is, right?
Merely ensuring that everyone has healthcare does not a socialist society make. </p>

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<p>I am completely baffled at the lack of understanding of what socialism is and isn’t. But I have to believe politics is driving that debate. </p>

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<p>People being forced to buy healthcare is a government intervention into the free market, so in a sense it is an act of the government representing socialism, but America is still a blend of capitalism and socialism. It’s not like Europe or anything heavens forbid.</p>

<p>I think this is involving too much politics though for CC, i just meant to ask a question on the future of doctor salaries.</p>

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<p>Socialism would force you to buy healthcare for everyone else… at this point we are only doing that for the elderly and very poor (and some states aren’t doing much of that). Forcing individuals to buy insurance themselves so they don’t burden the rest of us who do buy insurance to pay for their care isn’t socialism. I would say it smacks of having people take personal responsibility, myself. Otherwise us insured folks end up covering the bulk of the costs for those who think they don’t need insurance, but peskily end up in the hospital due to an accident or illness. We have been covering their costs for years – this is a move away from socialism, not toward it.</p>

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<p>@Jweinst1: It still isn’t socialism. You do not have private ownership or private distribution of profits in a socialist system. The “people” or the “workers” own the companies and profits. </p>

<p>The government forcing people to buy private insurance IS NOT socialism. Those insurance companies are still private. Medicare and Medicaid are single payer system. Private ownership and distribution of profits continue within that single payer system. The VA Health System is a socialist system; though not completely. It is owned and almost 100% operated by the government. There is minimal private ownership within that system. Some medical school independently manage limited VA locations and own the profits.</p>

<p>Whether we had Obamacare or not, doctors’ salaries were plummeting and expected to continue doing so. No evidence so far, though only 3 months, that Obamacare has increased or decreased that trend.</p>

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<p>Closing thread.</p>