Future of engineering in America?

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>Lately I've been hearing some things that seem to question the job security of engineers or other related fields in America. I saw this article in a magazine:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/printer_3679.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/printer_3679.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Unfortunately the entire article isn't there, but you can get the gist of it. It basically says that countries like China and India are advancing very quickly in technlology and are starting to catch up to the US, while the US is doing little to stay competitive. It says that these countries are graduating many more students with engineering or other science-related degrees that America is, and that these engineers are willing to work at a much lower salary than American engineers. As a consequence of these countries catching up to America and having workers willing to work for lower pay, American engineers do not have as many jobs available to them as before, and many engineers are being outsourced to these countries. Basically the article just questions the job security in engineering if these trends continue.</p>

<p>Last week we watched a video about globalization in my Civics/Econ class, and it basically said the same thing as this article did. Is this really a problem? In the future, will engineering no longer be the fairly high-paying and successful job that it is in America? Should we be warning our kids in the future to stay away from engineering, where before we encouraged them?</p>

2

<p>Well, there are a couple of reasons why China and India are graduating more engineering students than the US.</p>

<h1>1: India has over 3 times the population, and china has over 4 times</h1>

<h1>2: If the Chinese government wants you to go into engineering and you refuse, they might shoot you.</h1>

<p>Unrelated example: Why doesn't Yao Ming play more agressively?</p>

<p>Yao Ming is still a citizen of China, and they have alot of sway still on what he does. They want him to tipify the communist ideal. Unfortunatly for Houston, that means a basketball player playing below his potential.</p>

3

<p>-bmanbs2</p>

<p>I hope your joking because that response was just stupid</p>

4

<p>Fear not OP,</p>

<p>It was absolutely true that outsourcing not too long ago caused problems here in employment. However; hiring demands have gone up. This means that in places like India; because of the hiring frenzy - individuals are starting to demand higher salaries. A surprising study recently done has shown that programmers from Iowa are slightly cheaper to hire than in India. CEO's are NOT idiots. They've noticed this outsourcing deal starting backfire. This is why there is a hiring frenzy for comp. sci. </p>

<p>I checked with my career center and she said that there are companies that are desperately looking for students who have programming knowledges in SQL/C++/Java. She said it is THE fastest way to get hired. What was once a crapshoot (i.e. the IT industry) is now rapidly recovering and the salaries are more than generous. </p>

<p>My uncle's friend who just came to the country happens to know JAVA and C++. She got a job paying 70K+ starting. She has nothing exceptional written on her resume - ordinary college, etc...She just happens to know basic programming languages. </p>

<p>Software engineering is one of THE HOTTEST fields right now and one of the highest paying. I don't know how long this trend will last (meaning I don't know if the IT industry will remain a nice haven over the 10+ years).</p>

5

<p>Check this out:</p>

<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>My point exactly. Outsourcing targets comp. sci. jobs more than anything else by far. Yet we have 2 IT jobs listed in the top 10 best professions in America to work for at the moment.</p>

6

<p>Although this article is not shocking to me because i'm aware of outsourcing in America, it vexes me because I'm a business major who's about to switch into ISE...I hope that i'm not screwing myself in the future by making this switch.</p>

<p>I'm not sure how this outsourcing will affect the differing engineering majors (civil, electical, industrial, etc.), if it'll affect one major more than the other. I know that the need for manufacturing production managers are on the decline, but hopefully there will be plenty of other job opportunities for ISE majors.</p>

7

<p>I can say with fairly emphatic certainty that there will always be a domestic market for civil engineers... Too much field work to be able to outsource, and too many direct government-funded projects to disregard the feds' and states' policy to buy American.</p>

<p>So, no worries for <em>my</em> colleagues quite yet, until some elec invents cheap and reliable teleportation, in which case a lot of us will be screwed.</p>

8

<p>This just in: CHEAP TELEPORTATION INVENTED IN CHINA!</p>

<p>The first going rate for teleporting from America to China and vice versa is $1.50.</p>

<p>Sorry aibarr, looks like Civil Engineers are screwed, too. :(</p>

9

<p>I've said it before and I'll say it again. Engineering is a fantastic degree for the vast majority of Americans to get, for the simple reason that it is a far more marketable degree than what most American college students end up getting. Let's face it. There are lots of college students right now studying highly unmarketable disciplines like Art History and then come out and can't find jobs. The point is, while being an engineer in the US is certainly not problem-free, it's a heck of lot better than a lot of other jobs that Americans end up doing. There are a LOT of crappy jobs in the US. </p>

<p>The major problem I see in engineering is at the high end. Many of the best engineering students do not want to work as engineers, but instead opt for more glamorous and higher paying jobs in fields like consulting or investment banking. Or they go on to professional school like law school with the goal of becoming patent lawyers. I am continually struck by the number of brilliant MIT and Stanford engineering students who have decided that instead of working as engineers, they'd rather work for McKinsey. Sadly, the US engineering industry just doesn't seem to have much of a place for the very best engineers, which is why they tend to leave engineering. </p>

<p>As a case in point - in India, a guy graduating with an engineering degree from the top schools like IIT can be offered from an engineering company literally 4 or 5 times what some average Indian college graduate will be offered. But that's not really true in the US. If you graduate at the top of your class in engineering at MIT, no engineering company is going to offer to pay you 5 times more than what an average US college graduate will be offered. Maybe you will get paid 2 or 3 times, but certainly not 5 times. In other words, in the US, companies are simply not willing to pay as much of a premium for top engineering talent as the Indian companies are, which is why the best US talent will tend to pursue other careers. The best graduates from MIT ask themselves "Why should I make only 60k in my first year working as an engineer when I can make 120k as an investment banker?" </p>

<p>The bottom line is that engineering is a fantastic deal for the average or the mediocre student. Making a 50k starting salary as an engineer is a lot better than making 25-30k with a no-name liberal arts degree. But I don't know that engineering is so good for the stars. The stars may well be better off pursuing other careers that will pay them what they really deserve. They can still get engineering degrees, but just not work as an engineer.</p>

10

<p>If the top American engineering majors do indeed opt for other more lucrative careers like i-banking, it begs the question: would they be as competitive in the new career as degree-holders of other more pertinent majors (like Accounting, Finance, etc.)?
-I doubt it, and that's why I'm reluctant to switch from BA to ise..</p>

<p>Also, how effectively does holding an engineering degree like ise close the door for a career in financial analysis, actuary, financial manager, etc.?</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
If you graduate at the top of your class in engineering at MIT, no engineering company is going to offer to pay you 5 times more than what an average US college graduate will be offered.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's because they can go down to India and hire their grads for much less!</p>

12

<p>I became good friends with a grad student from india in my research lab. One of the reasons she said so many Indian students come to America for grad studies is pay. A top engineer will only make about $8000-10000/yr american, and the average engineer will make $5000-6000 (based upon exchange rate between rupees and dollars). This is decent money in India, but it's by no means great. In India, engineering is a respected profession, but not a valuable profession (for the individual). I know another guy said he had a higher pay scale in his 1st American internship than he did after working 3yrs in India. He'd go back home to India for vaccation and live like a king.</p>

<p>The real problem is an American company can literally hire 5 people in India for what they pay one American engineer, and they don't have to worry about health care, pension, etc. . Indian companies can afford to pay their "top" candidates more, because they don't pay very much in the first place. Realistically, American engineers would have to be willing to accept 50% pay cuts and reductions in benefits to be economically competitive with India.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
That's because they can go down to India and hire their grads for much less!

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</p>

<p>Yes, this is true, but then that begs the question of why don't consulting firms or investment banks also go to India and hire those grads for much less? India has some pretty sharp businessmen and bankers too. Don't you find it interesting that companies seem to want to save money on engineering labor costs by hiring from overseas, but never seem to want to save money on consulting or banking labor costs. Shouldn't you want to save money on ALL labor costs?</p>

<p>
[quote]
If the top American engineering majors do indeed opt for other more lucrative careers like i-banking, it begs the question: would they be as competitive in the new career as degree-holders of other more pertinent majors (like Accounting, Finance, etc.)?
-I doubt it, and that's why I'm reluctant to switch from BA to ise..

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, this I strongly disagree with. It's belied by the data. If what you are saying is true, then why do the top banks continue to hire so many engineers from the top schools? For example, I know plenty of graduating MIT engineers who have taken jobs at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Lehman, JPMorganChase, etc. If these engineers aren't going to be good workers, then why these firms keep coming back every year to hire them? Are these firms being stupid? Forget about MIT Sloan (which, yes, they also hire plenty of students from). I'm specifically talking about the engineers. You can look at the career reports of the MIT engineers and notice that plenty of the end up in investment banking. Why do these banks keep hiring them if they don't know what they are doing? </p>

<p>I have an even better example. Some of the other major hunting grounds for new bankers are HYPS - schools that don't even offer undergrad majors in accounting or finance. Yet the major banks continue to recruit heavily from these schools. Why is that? Are these banks being stupid? I know a number of people who are getting various liberal arts majors at Harvard and are now heading off to banking. </p>

<p>The truth is, you are far far more likely to get a job at a bulge-bracket Wall Street firm coming from HYPS or from MIT engineering than you are as a accounting/finance student at a no-name school. The fact is, it really isn't that hard to train you on the mechanical aspects of what you need to know to do your job. What the banks are looking for are raw intellectual talent (which the HYPSM students clearly have), and a big brand name school in order to attract more clients. Wheter we like it or not, it's easier to attract more business clientele if you can say that you can devote a bunch of Harvard or MIT graduates to your account than if you say that you are going to devote a bunch of grads from no-name schools (but who majored in accounting/finance) to your account.</p>

<p>This actually gets to a tangent point, which is that, the truth is, most of the specific things you learn in college, you will never actually use on your job. Engineers know what I'm talking about - working as an engineer is a very far cry from studying engineering. Studying engineering inevitably involves wading through morasses of equation after equation after equation. Heck, entire engineering lectures are often times spent deriving equations. But you don't do any of that stuff as a working engineer. In fact, I strongly remember being a summer intern and having to reteach some of the engineers there how to do basic calculus integrals. These guys held master's and PhD's in engineering, so clearly there was a time when they knew math quite well. But the fact is, they had been working for decades and never used what they knew, and so they forgot it all. Nevertheless, they had highly successful engineering careers. That just shows that, frankly, most of the stuff that you learn, you never use. </p>

<p>The same is true of accounting/finance. The fact is, most working accountants or bankers never use most of the stuff that they learned in college to do their job. </p>

<p>What really matters for a college education is the general development of knowledge that you obtain. In essence, the real value is in learning how to learn. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, how effectively does holding an engineering degree like ise close the door for a career in financial analysis, actuary, financial manager, etc.?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It doesn't seem to close the doors at all to the engineers from the top schools like MIT, Stanford, and so forth. In fact, if anything, it actually OPENS the door. If anything, banks seem to prefer engineers as they have proven that they have a high tolerance for hard work and long hours, which is exactly what you need to do well in investment banking.</p>

14

<p>The going trend is that, economic profits go to zero -- that is, where there may be a good deal now (say, hiring engineers in India) they will eventually cease to be cheaper than their American counterparts (possibly due to demand being satisfied, or because of increasing salaries in India -- as India transforms to a developed nation, it will have similar pay rates as its Western competitors). So in other words, if it's not that bad now for the American engineer, it's only going to get <em>better</em> in the future. No worries.</p>

15

<p>No, once the indian market is saturated, they can start targeting pakistan (which they have already done..and pakistanis settle for even lesser salaries)</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
Yes, this is true, but then that begs the question of why don't consulting firms or investment banks also go to India and hire those grads for much less? India has some pretty sharp businessmen and bankers too. Don't you find it interesting that companies seem to want to save money on engineering labor costs by hiring from overseas, but never seem to want to save money on consulting or banking labor costs. Shouldn't you want to save money on ALL labor costs?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's the nature of the jobs... an engineer does more work with their brains, and less with their outward appearance and speaking savvy (specifically English ability, because a lot of the rich investors are American/English speaking). An IB does a lot of sales/presentation/speaking to high level business execs... thus, there is a difference in job function that probably drives IB's to prefer native tongue Americans.</p>

17

<p>There's a lot more regulation and licensing for the individual working as a corporate investment banker, stock broker, financial advisor, etc. than there is for the corporate engineer.</p>

<p>You also have to look at how IB make their money. They don't produce a good (or do work that will lead to a production of a good), they provide a service. That service does involve careful evaluation of data, but it ultimately boils down to speculation. To be a successful IB, one needs to have thurough first hand knowledge/exposure to the social, economic, and political climate of the place where business is being done. Plus, consumer confidence not necessarily performance determines the success of an IB. </p>

<p>Ibs don't control the market or economy, they just invest money. They can't gurantee success (i.e. growth and high roi). Most IB or private financial advisors only show moderate roi on the average. However, if the public perception is "wow this financial group has great investment strategies" they investment group will get a lot of business. They get money to invest and they get their comission. How willing to invest do you think most Americans would be knowing that their money and personal info. was floating around India (think about the opinions of Dell customer service). It's not a question of whether their money is in better or worse hands, it's a question of perception.</p>

18

<p>"It doesn't seem to close the doors at all to the engineers from the top schools like MIT, Stanford, and so forth. In fact, if anything, it actually OPENS the door. If anything, banks seem to prefer engineers as they have proven that they have a high tolerance for hard work and long hours, which is exactly what you need to do well in investment banking."</p>

<p>If it doesn't close the doors to the engineers from top schools, then what about schools like USC? (I belive Viterbi is ranked highly for grad school, but not too high for ug.) Would a USC ISE degree make you marketable and competitive for a career in finance (fin. analyst, manager, actuary, etc.) or will BA-finance majors have a big leg up?</p>

<p>"It's the nature of the jobs... an engineer does more work with their brains, and less with their outward appearance and speaking savvy (specifically English ability, because a lot of the rich investors are American/English speaking). An IB does a lot of sales/presentation/speaking to high level business execs... thus, there is a difference in job function that probably drives IB's to prefer native tongue Americans."</p>

<p>I agree with that completely.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
It's the nature of the jobs... an engineer does more work with their brains, and less with their outward appearance and speaking savvy (specifically English ability, because a lot of the rich investors are American/English speaking). An IB does a lot of sales/presentation/speaking to high level business execs... thus, there is a difference in job function that probably drives IB's to prefer native tongue Americans.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Very good. That's absolutely right. But that means that engineering ought to change to emphasize a greater emphasis on communications and social skills and less emphasis on pure brainpower. That is why, for example, I support the notion of US engineering programs teaching skills like project management as well as general business skills so that they can serve as the liaison between the true tech-heads (which may be located overseas) and US businessmen. </p>

<p>
[quote]
There's a lot more regulation and licensing for the individual working as a corporate investment banker, stock broker, financial advisor, etc. than there is for the corporate engineer.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>To some extent, this explains banking. But it doesn't explain consulting at all. If anything, engineering is more regulated and licensed than the consulting industry is. </p>

<p>And besides, I think the notion of licensing as it has to do with banking is a bit of a chimera. After all, plenty of foreigners get licensed to work as securities professionals in the US. I know quite a few European and Asian nationals who went to the top US schools like HYPSM and then immediately got jobs in investment banking. So they apparently got licensed. Furthermore, I know Americans who got jobs in investment banking in such world banking centers such as London, Hong Kong and Singapore. So it seems to me that you don't really need to be a citizen of that country in order to get licensed as an investment professional of that country. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You also have to look at how IB make their money. They don't produce a good (or do work that will lead to a production of a good), they provide a service. That service does involve careful evaluation of data, but it ultimately boils down to speculation. To be a successful IB, one needs to have thurough first hand knowledge/exposure to the social, economic, and political climate of the place where business is being done.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, first off, plenty of engineers only provide a service, strictly speaking. For example, the entire discipline of industrial engineering is really about producing a service, in the sense that it is all about how to optimize your manufacturing plants or your supply chain. Environmental engineering is also in many ways a service. </p>

<p>Secondly, I would say that you seem to be greatly underestimating the kind of speculation involved in engineering. Almost all design-engineering work is speculation. You produce something that will be appealing to the eye and to the touch. Sometimes you will hit it, sometimes you won't. That's what design is all about, particularly the design of consumer goods. I would furthermore state that if anything, it is this kind of design work that is intimately intertwined with an understanding of sociology and psychology. The reason why the Apple Ipod is such a hit is because Apple design engineers deeply understand the customer and know what they like.</p>

20

<p>I had to cut off my previous post, mostly because I had a pressing engagement elsewhere. But I'm back, and I can continue.</p>

<p>I emphasized the point of design before. However, design is really just a subset of a larger category of simply attempting to satisfy customer demands, including demands that the customer doesn't even know he wants until he sees a product that satisfies him, or demands that he finds difficult to articulate. As an engineer, it is your job to create a product that fulfills all of these demands. Some of the most successful products in the world were products that fulfilled demands that customers didn't even realize that they had. Being able to predict these sorts of things requires an intimate understanding of culture. </p>

<p>Take the realm of video games. Some video games become commercial flops despite being extremely technically impressive. It's not enough to just have lots of polygons and lots of shading and texture to create a successful video game. It also becomes a matter of understanding the latent desires of gamers. </p>

<p>But that gets to an even larger subject which is that I think that we are greatly underestimating just how much subjectiveness and judgment there really is in the world of practical engineering. The truth is, most real-world engineering judgments are highly subjective. The coursework of engineering is therefore highly misleading because they mislead students into thinking that all engineering problems can be broken down into a bunch of clearly defined and rigorous equations. In the real world, this is not so. Numerous rules-of-thumb and risk judgments are used to complete engineering projects. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Ibs don't control the market or economy, they just invest money. They can't gurantee success (i.e. growth and high roi). Most IB or private financial advisors only show moderate roi on the average. However, if the public perception is "wow this financial group has great investment strategies" they investment group will get a lot of business. They get money to invest and they get their comission. How willing to invest do you think most Americans would be knowing that their money and personal info. was floating around India (think about the opinions of Dell customer service). It's not a question of whether their money is in better or worse hands, it's a question of perception.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that ALREADY happens. For example, many US commercial banks already run extensive back-office operations in India. For example, Bank of America already runs several offshore offices in India doing routine paperwork and electronic data transfer. But does that make me nervous to deposit my money in BoA? Not really. Citibank, Wachovia, American Express, and plenty of other US financial firms are already outsourcing much of their backoffice work to India. But that hasn't seemed to have made Americans nervous about depositing their savings in these firms. So if they are already depositing savings in firms that run significant Indian backoffice centers, then why would there be a problem in perception to have Indian investment bankers manage their investments? </p>

<p><a href="http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/may/10bpo5.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/may/10bpo5.htm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9589_22-5190042.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9589_22-5190042.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,102885,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,102885,00.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://news.com.com/2110-1001-5191655.html?tag=alert%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news.com.com/2110-1001-5191655.html?tag=alert&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_47/b3909069.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_47/b3909069.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
If it doesn't close the doors to the engineers from top schools, then what about schools like USC? (I belive Viterbi is ranked highly for grad school, but not too high for ug.) Would a USC ISE degree make you marketable and competitive for a career in finance (fin. analyst, manager, actuary, etc.) or will BA-finance majors have a big leg up?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, the truth is, I'm sure we can all agree that USC is not at the level of schools like HYPSM. I suspect that the USC BA finance majors will probably end up with the same opportunities as the USC engineers will, given the same motivations. Obviously more BA finance people will go to banking simply because more of them are interested in banking in the first place. However, if the motivations are the same, then I think the outcomes will be roughly the same.</p>