Future of Engineering?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>Well, I wouldn’t go that far. The US actually imports some weapons systems. BAE (a British defense contractor) actually exports a significant quantity of weapons to the US, and in fact is now the 7th largest supplier to the US DoD. To be sure, BAE needs by law to have its American subsidiary led by US managers, but the point is, certainly some BAE employees who are not US citizens are, right now, working on defense systems that will be used by the US DoD. For example, BAE is a partner in the development of the F-35 fighter. That is basically the ‘outsourcing’ of part of US national security, as I’m quite sure that not every BAE employee who worked on the F-35 was an American citizen.</p>

<p>Now of course, some of you will be thinking that the outsourcing of work to the British is no big deal. But the point is, if national security work can be outsourced to the Brits, then in theory, it could also be outsourced to other countries also.</p>

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<p>It’s perfectly acceptable. Keep in mind that a resume is a marketing document, nothing more, nothing less. Its sole purpose is to land you an interview. The resume is not the whole truth, nor is it supposed to be. You’re not supposed to outwardly lie on your resume, but you don’t have to tell the whole truth either. Just like no company out there actually tells you the whole truth in its marketing, you are also under no obligation to tell the whole truth to a prospective employer.</p>

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<p>First off, like I’ve always said, there is a big difference between * studying* engineering and actually working as an engineer. Plenty of people who earn engineering degrees will never work as engineers. This should actually not be surprising at all, because the fact is, most people in any discipline will not actually work in that field. For example, most history majors do not become historians. Most sociology majors do not become sociologists. Most art majors do not become artists. A college degree should therefore be seen as a method to train your mind so that you can quickly learn whatever it is that you do end up doing in your career.</p>

<p>With that said, I would argue that engineering is a highly worthy field to study because, if nothing else, at least you will develop a body of knowledge of technology. Even if you never actually work as an engineer, that body of knowledge is valuable to have. </p>

<p>Furthermore, while surely engineering jobs can be outsourced, so can almost all other jobs. So on a relative basis, engineering is still a pretty good choice. After all, from a marketability standpoint, what’s better to major in as an undergrad? What’s the alternative? Humanities? Political science? Sociology? English? I don’t think so. So even if engineering is hurt by outsourcing, it is still a more marketable degree to have relative to most other bachelor’s degrees you can get. </p>

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<p>In theory, any job can be outsourced. ANY job. What matters is the difference in difficulty for a job to be outsourced. ChemE is probably one of the more difficult jobs to be outsourced, but you can’t say that it never can be. </p>

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<p>Yes, it is true, although that might change in the future. However, right now, it is still true that the US is still the most innovative nation in the world. For example, the US wins the lion’s share of the world’s Nobel Prizes and other major academic awards. The US still leads in terms of technology entrepreneurship and commercialization. Granted, a lot of this was won by foreign-born scientists (i.e immigrants who became perm residents or naturalized citizens), but that still counts as US-centric innovation. </p>

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<p>Well, in theory, those high-end computational and research jobs can be outsourced too. Heck, in some ways, it’s actually easier to outsource research jobs than it is to outsource manufacturing jobs. After all, the outsourcing of manufacturing requires not only the building of manufacturing plants, but also connecting those plants to supply-chain and distribution networks. Research on the other hand can be done in situ. Yes, sometimes you need large and expensive research facilities. But you don’t really have to create supplier and (especially) distribution networks, because the output of a research lab is an idea, not a physical product. Ideas in the form of research papers or patents are just information, and information can be transmitted around the world at virtually zero cost. </p>

<p>The point is that there is no reason why R&D couldn’t theoretically all be outsourced away. In fact, one of the major arguments against outsourcing and free trade is that it would result in the hollowing out of the US economy - where Americans would be stuck with the grunt service jobs (i.e. stocking shelves at Walmart) and all of the intellectual jobs would be sent overseas. </p>

<p>However, the rejoinder is that it is of course extremely unlikely for all, or even most research jobs to be outsourced. Surely some will. But most will stay in this country. The truth is, the US is still the most innovative country in the world. The US has most of the best research universities in the world, has most of the best scientists, and has a long-standing culture that fosters creativity. Furthermore, the potential gains from research are so low as to make the labor costs minimal, and hence the savings to be had from outsourcing research are not highly compelling. Just the invention of the Internet alone (by US scientists and engineers) has probably generated over a trillion dollars of economic value, which clearly renders inconsequential the salaries that had to be paid to those Americans. </p>

<p>Hence, while there will be (and already has been) some outsourcing of R&D jobs, I doubt that it will be widespread. As long as the US maintains its education and creativity edge, the US has little to fear. Now, if the US falls down in these metrics, then the US would indeed have a problem.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the nice posts Sakky!</p>

<p>“With that said, I would argue that engineering is a highly worthy field to study because, if nothing else, at least you will develop a body of knowledge of technology. Even if you never actually work as an engineer, that body of knowledge is valuable to have.”<br>
When you say this, do you mean that the employment prospect for an engineer (ChemE specifically) would be more advantageous than, say, the employment prospect of a bio major wanting to teach high school, or a postdoc to seek for a tenure-track position at a 4 year university?</p>

<p>I am looking forward to get an engineering degree, and I suppose this degree would have more impact in the real world than someone who simply majored in a pure science like biology or physics. </p>

<p>1.Is that true? I just suppose that because engineering programs (ABET accredited) are the most challenging ones, so hard work usually pays off. I just don’t know how much advantage an engineering degree will give. </p>

<p>2.Is there a shortage of engineers and scientists, or are there too many engineers and scientists to be accomodated by society in the US?</p>

<p>PS: I am talking about the employment prospect in the years to come (in 10-12 yrs), not at the present moment.</p>

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<p>That’s very interesting about BAE, sakky. Never knew that… thanks for the info.</p>

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<p>thanks for addressing my concerns sakky. we’ll just have to wait to see if you’re right…</p>

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<p>If we wanted we can all take a stand and stop outsourcing. I never buy from a non American store and never buy from a non American company, unless its necessary. If I were to ever own a business or manage one I would never go overseas either.</p>

<p>Like my mother thinks im crazy, but Id rather spend the extra $2 on a pound of sliced ham at a American owned Deli here in NYC than at a Bodega.</p>

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<p>Ur mother is right. Save your money. Trying to stop outsourcing by exclusively buying American made goods is like trying to cripple the oil companies’ profits by not driving. </p>

<p>I hate how people think outsourcing is necessarily a bad thing. IMO, outsourcing lower level jobs will just make Americans work harder (face it, we are lazy) and get a better education. As time goes on, more higher-level engineering jobs will be created, thus continuing the US’s legacy as a world leader in technology and science. The US cannot continue to be a country where engineers keep working in factories and plants. It’s a fact, foreign companies are producing better good at lower prices, and there is nothing we can do to change that. </p>

<p>A friend told me that the US government heavily taxes imported automobiles, like toyota and honda, just to keep the price of them at the SAME level as their American equivalents. even then, toyota’s sales are still skyrocketing in the US and many people even consider the japanese auto maker’s cars superior to those of the Big 3. </p>

<p>Outsourcing is inevitable, but Americans have a luxury where there is still opportunity in the US elsewhere. We also have the best universities in the world,</p>

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<p>I don’t know about “the Internet” per se, but I was under the impression that the World Wide Web was actually invented by European scientists (Briton [Tim Berners-Lee]( <a href=“Tim Berners-Lee - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee&lt;/a&gt;) and Belgian [Robert Cailluau](<a href=“Robert Cailliau - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cailliau&lt;/a&gt;)) while working at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland. </p>

<p>I must be wrong though. Every American knows Al Gore invented the Internet (as he once claimed !).</p>

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<p>“We also have the best universities in the world”
I would argue that this is a fallacy. Indeed, there are a few US Universities up on the academic standard (U of Chicago, MIT…) but that’s 20-25 schools out of 3500 colleges.
On an average postsecondary education in the US is really bad.</p>

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<p>No she is not right, The money from those Bodegas goes right back to fund there Terrorist cells in Yemen. I went into one and asked the owner, he just had a smile on his face.</p>

<p>Id rather give my business to a American Business over any Bodega or international business. Because I know that , the extra cost is not because the product is more expensive, its more expensive because the owner needs to survive. He has a family and as a American I want the same for him as I have. While if you see the shack the 25 guys from the 6 bodegas on our Ave live in, yeah they really care about comfortable living. 25 guys live in a 2 bedroom apartment. They take there trips back to Yemen every 3 months. Srew that, Il stick up for American Business.</p>

<p>you say Americans are lazy your nutz. When I always wanted a summer job, while in school and could never find one here in NYC, it was pretty much because of Mexicans. They didn’t have construction jobs, or Moving, or being a Waiter at a Diner or a Bus boy. It was all Mexicans and I would have loved to have those jobs. But There was nothing entry level for me. I just day get rid of em all. If we did, that 3-4% unemployment would go away.</p>

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<p>If they are so bad then why do the majority of top international students come here rather than going to there homelands top institutions. My school is ranked 10th on IIE Open Doors report on international student mobility. Here is a quote</p>

<p>“This year’s ranking indicates that UB enrolled 4,072 international students among a total enrollment of 27,220 in 2005-06, an increase of 2.7 percent from the previous year”</p>

<p>So my school is not a T25 but still gets a **** load of International students, To much for my tastes. Most of My Engineering friends from japan all come here for engineering over top schools in Japan. I wonder why they call the schools in japan bad.</p>

<p>The US has the best Institutions in the world.</p>

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<p>“The US has the best Institutions in the world.”
I concur, although I know for a fact that this is generally not representative of puplic opinion in Europe (although most experts agree).
On a side note, however, there are fine institutions everywhere in the world, even in engineering. It’s just that the American engineering philosophy in universities is perhaps the best around.</p>

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<p>Perhaps, but not many people except US citizens pay 30-40k a year to get that golden education.
And many introductory courses in the US are actually 12th grade level in most other countries (even Vietnam, Russia…) Besides, in university, students in other countries (in developed countries) actually focus ONLY on their majors, not on humanities or literature requirements because they already covered it in High School. THis focused study makes it more efficient.
For example, in Quebec, most students graduate in 3 yrs to get a bachelor while US students would have to graduate in 4 yrs if they went there.</p>

<p>In other countries, calculus is part of requirements to graduate (as well as calc based physics, intro to orgo, philosophy…) Also, I have found that secondary teachers in the US have substandart knowledge of their subject. In France, I had REAL great teachers: my history teacher was an archeogist, my biology teachers used to do research at CNRS,etc… maybe, I went to a very competitive HS but still, I would argue that US education is sometimes not as good as many US citizens claim (since they are paying thousands of dollar, they have to make that education sound great)</p>

<p>The same holds for medical school. Because of a greater secondary education, premed years in France last 1 yr (versus the 4 yrs in the US). Students start directly with organic chemistry, biochemistry, biophysic and other courses in their FIRST year of premed.</p>

<p>However, I would argue that grad school in the US is a total different thing.</p>

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<p>“I wonder why they call the schools in japan bad.”</p>

<p>LOL, my experience is actually quite the contrary. Most of them said, if they could get acceptance to one of the top institutions in Japan, they wouldn’t have come here. Now, obviously schools like MIT, Caltech and Stanford are arguably about as hard to get into as any top Japanese universities, but we’re not talking about those schools here, are we? I don’t know, try asking one of your friends yourself if they would still attend the University of Buffalo had then been accepted to the Tokyo University or Waseda. And yeah, I do believe that the US has the best post-secondary education system in the world. That’s the reason why many of our best students are actually foreign-born.</p>

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<p>Bruno, you’re right about the internet. The 'net (packet switching and the internet ‘protocols’ to make that process work) was were by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) during the 1980s. Once we had thousands of nets linked together, CERN invented the idea of a program that would know what kind of file you wanted, and use the right application to download and display it. Thus, the browser was born. And they called it the “world wide web”. That was the early 1990s.</p>

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<p>“Because I know that , the extra cost is not because the product is more expensive, its more expensive because the owner needs to survive. He has a family and as a American I want the same for him as I have.”</p>

<p>So the Yemenese people running their businesses don’t have families as well? So all Yemenese people running businesses in the US are terrorists? Please. I’m not saying the American businesses deserve to be shut down because of the foreign markets, but you can’t assume everyone coming to the US trying to make a living is a money-gouging scoundrel terrorist. </p>

<p>“So my school is not a T25 but still gets a **** load of International students, To much for my tastes.”</p>

<p>Why such the hostilities towards internationals. Globalization is occurring, whether you like it or not. You cannot just keep sheltering yourself away from people of countries and cultures. If you fail to embrace it, you will just be left in the dust.</p>

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<p>“Perhaps, but not many people except US citizens pay 30-40k a year to get that golden education.”
If you’re paying that much per year for college, chances are you’re going to one of the best schools not only in the US, but also in the world. Most American students pay much less, even at top institutions.</p>

<p>“And many introductory courses in the US are actually 12th grade level in most other countries (even Vietnam, Russia…)”
Is the quality of instruction the same, or just the subject matter? Is the treatment more or less rigorous? Do you have any learning comprehension figures? How are the secondary education systems of those countries structured - similarly to the US’s secondary education system? Are the systems even comparable, or do they operate on different philosophies? Are you qualified to make such assertions?</p>

<p>“Besides, in university, students in other countries (in developed countries) actually focus ONLY on their majors, not on humanities or literature requirements because they already covered it in High School. THis focused study makes it more efficient.”
Also, in many developed countries, high school lasts longer than it does in the US. So there goes that theory, out the window. Additionally, what evidence is there that focused studies are more efficient? What does that even mean? The European system of higher education is scrambling to mimic the US system on all fronts. Especially if you’re comparing only systems, the US wins, hands down, and everybody agrees.</p>

<p>“For example, in Quebec, most students graduate in 3 yrs to get a bachelor while US students would have to graduate in 4 yrs if they went there.”
And how long, exactly, does high school last in Quebec? How is education structured there? Would students from Quebec need 3 or 4 years in US institutions?</p>

<p>“In other countries, calculus is part of requirements to graduate (as well as calc based physics, intro to orgo, philosophy…)”
So what? Different strokes for different folks. And very few people even really need to know calculus. And whoever wants to study it can, and I doubt they would be denied graduation for it. And all science/engineering majors need it, as well as most social-science majors.</p>

<p>“Also, I have found that secondary teachers in the US have substandart knowledge of their subject. In France, I had REAL great teachers: my history teacher was an archeogist, my biology teachers used to do research at CNRS,etc… maybe, I went to a very competitive HS but still, I would argue that US education is sometimes not as good as many US citizens claim (since they are paying thousands of dollar, they have to make that education sound great)”
Irrelevant. Teaching, particularly at the secondary/high school level is not as attractive of a profession in the US as it might be elsewhere. Therefore, due to the mere economics of it, the best people go to the best jobs and the worst people go to the worst jobs. Now, teaching isn’t the worst job around, but it’s by no means the best. Besides, the job of secondary school teachers in the US isn’t to teach rigorous material, but to expose students to subjects and train them in the fundamentals.</p>

<p>On a side note, I would counter by pointing out that university professors in the US are probably, in general, much better teachers than their European counterparts. This is because of the differences in doctoral education in the US and in Europe, and is reflected by class attendance by students. So yes, Americans pay for college, but they’re getting better instruction, at least.</p>

<p>“The same holds for medical school. Because of a greater secondary education, premed years in France last 1 yr (versus the 4 yrs in the US). Students start directly with organic chemistry, biochemistry, biophysic and other courses in their FIRST year of premed.”
Do they take the same courses? Are the courses covered in comparable breadth and depth? Is the level of rigor the same? Is the instruction as adequate? Is the retention in the same ball park? What is perceived educational effectiveness like?</p>

<p>Let’s please avoid comparing education and systems, thanks.</p>

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<p>Spoke with a bunch of German engineering exchange students. A single exam at the end of a class? No homework? Laughable. I can’t imagine how one actually learns the material.</p>

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<p>It does seem to beg the question, Mr Payne. A sound body of psychological evidence supports the elaborative rehearsal process, which coincides exactly with homework, quizzes, tests, exams, projects, papers, essays, etc. Not doing them means less retention. In fact, while I can’t deny that it seems European students study more subjects, and the same subjects in more depth, I wonder exactly the same thing - what is the retention, i.e., do they actually know any of it, or how to apply it?</p>

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<p>I think it really shows how poor engineering education is in general. It’s so absurdly broad for most degrees that most learning occurs on the job anyway. The piece of paper doesn’t really vouch for knowledge, it just is an effective sorting mechanism.</p>