<p>i like you 1of42</p>
<p>
[quote]
Oh? And why, exactly, is it not the same thing? Because you don't feel as uncomfortable about black people as about gay people? Because ancient, outdated Old Testament books (Leviticus) didn't mention black people like gay people? Or, perhaps, because you feel that gay people are just choosing a lifestyle?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Because Blacks faced legitimate discrimination with no representation, faced around 250 years of slavery followed by seventy more of segregation, and fought for basic rights like the right to own property much longer than gays have had to. </p>
<p>For starters.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, let me make it very clear: the two are not different, except in severity of historical treatment. Black people have had to deal with more crap than gay people; the differences end their. Other than that, they are both minorities who are or were derisively degraded pervasively throughout our culture, because of something that it is both unfair and impossible to ask them to change. (have you ever asked a black person if they would just try not to be black? Or just stop living the "black lifestyle"? Yeah, didn't think so.)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They are different. Overt discrimination based on skin color isn't the same as overt discrimination based on sexual orientation. If someone hates you because of your skin color, you're pretty much screwed unless you cover up your whole self. The only way people know of your sexual orientation is if you tell them, or if they see you having sex with someone of the same sex. </p>
<p>No, I've never asked a black person that question. Then again, I've never asked a gay person that question.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I can understand why you're so hot under the collar about me switching "black" for "gay" in your posts, though - it's not very comfortable to read what are 99% your own words and realize that what you're reading is bigoted trash. But what else can I do? You're making thes ridiculously bigoted posts with absolutely no perspective on what they sound like - all I can do is try to bring that to your attention.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, it's just offensive to compare the two when they're not the same thing, and it shows your ignorance to the social and political ills Blacks and gays have faced. I'm not "hot under the collar" about your posts -- just a little confounded by the comparison. I guess to someone like you, it's all one in the same. But I'd say the Blacks who have been arrested and killed because of racism feel a bit worse than gay couples who can't marry.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Blacks who have been arrested and killed because of racism feel a bit worse than gay couples who can't marry.
[/quote]
What about gay people who have been killed?</p>
<p>
Because Blacks faced legitimate discrimination with no representation, faced around 250 years of slavery followed by seventy more of segregation, and fought for basic rights like the right to own property much longer than gays have had to.
</p>
<p>Right, which is why I said that black people had faced more discrimination. You still have yet to address the fundamental point that the nature of the discrimination is exactly the same, which I suspect you won't because it's an uncomfortable thing to have to accept. It's not "worse" to discriminate against black people than it is to discriminate against gay people; both are equally horrible. One has just been done more in the past.</p>
<p>
They are different. Overt discrimination based on skin color isn't the same as overt discrimination based on sexual orientation. If someone hates you because of your skin color, you're pretty much screwed unless you cover up your whole self. The only way people know of your sexual orientation is if you tell them, or if they see you having sex with someone of the same sex.
</p>
<p>...wow. So as long as gay people hide that they're gay, all is dandy in your eyes? Sorry, but a society in which you have to hide who you are in order to not face discrimination is a bigoted society, end of story.</p>
<p>
No, it's just offensive to compare the two when they're not the same thing, and it shows your ignorance to the social and political ills Blacks and gays have faced. I'm not "hot under the collar" about your posts -- just a little confounded by the comparison. I guess to someone like you, it's all one in the same. But I'd say the Blacks who have been arrested and killed because of racism feel a bit worse than gay couples who can't marry.
</p>
<p>Ah, a little false comparison to crown this lovely jewel of a post. Yes, I'm sure blacks who were arrested or killed for their blackness feel worse than gays who can't marry for their gayness. But I don't think they feel worse than gays who were arrested or killed for their gayness (has happened in many places; continues to - anti-sodomy laws, gay bashings, and all that - and if you think it doesn't you're blind), in just the same way that I don't think blacks do or should have felt worse than gays when blacks couldn't marry whites. Just because one type of discrimination is based on skin color and the other on sexual orientation does not make the former worse than the latter.</p>
<p>Just FYI, gays have faced discrimination for at least 2000 years. Hence Lectivus. The whole reason it's in the Bible is because that was the cultural norm for ancient Babylonia. Just as was wearing cloth made of two fabrics, or... You know what, just watch this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Right, which is why I said that black people had faced more discrimination. You still have yet to address the fundamental point that the nature of the discrimination is exactly the same, which I suspect you won't because it's an uncomfortable thing to have to accept. It's not "worse" to discriminate against black people than it is to discriminate against gay people; both are equally horrible. One has just been done more in the past.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nowhere have I denied gays have been against. I've said the plight of Blacks is different from the plight of gays partially because of how much more discrimination they have faced. </p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
...wow. So as long as gay people hide that they're gay, all is dandy in your eyes? Sorry, but a society in which you have to hide who you are in order to not face discrimination is a bigoted society, end of story.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>No, I'm saying there's a fundamental difference in the two. You're still trying to make this about how you feel, and you're completely ignoring the fact that I don't see them the same way. This is once again another DIFFERENCE between the two. Because people have know whether or not you're gay to intentionally discriminate against you...just like they have to know your race and ethnicity. Guess which one is more discrete?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ah, a little false comparison to crown this lovely jewel of a post. Yes, I'm sure blacks who were arrested or killed for their blackness feel worse than gays who can't marry for their gayness. But I don't think they feel worse than gays who were arrested or killed for their gayness (has happened in many places; continues to - anti-sodomy laws, gay bashings, and all that - and if you think it doesn't you're blind), in just the same way that I don't think blacks do or should have felt worse than gays when blacks couldn't marry whites. Just because one type of discrimination is based on skin color and the other on sexual orientation does not make the former worse than the latter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First of all, don't be a douche to me, dude. You don't know, I don't know you, and just because we disagree doesn't mean you get to be a prick. I could say I hate gay and wish they would all burn in Hell...what could you do about it? Call me names? Be glad someone you're against is taking the time to debate you on this.</p>
<p>Second, uh, sodomy laws (for the most part) were for everybody. It was the (correct) belief that sodomy is unclean and a health risk, so they outlawed it. Of course these were overturned four years ago, and before they were barely enforced except in a few rare instances. I wont even get into how unlikely it would be for someone to arrest you based on sodomy, if you're doing it at home. Not saying it hasn't happened, just saying it's unlikely to be a regular occurrence.</p>
<p>And like I said, yes, some gays have gone through similar things. In no way has it been on the level or the severity that Blacks have faced, and if you look at their respective movements and how long Blacks had to fight and some died just for their civil rights, the gay movement has moved much, much quicker in terms of equal dignity. People love to act like gays are still so badly oppressed because Congress isn't rushing to redefine marriage laws; nevermind them having gay pride parades in most major cities, media and congressional representation (something Blacks didn't really have at the height of their movement), AIDS having more financial backing than many other other diseases (which came after people assumed AIDS was just a gay male disease in the 80s) like heart disease (which more people die of) and certain types of cancer.</p>
<p>Nice job glossing over the fact that sodomy laws were declared unconstitutional in Lawrence v. Texas in part because they were only being enforced when homosexual sodomy was involved.</p>
<p>Being gay doesn't need to be the same thing as being black for discrimination against queer people to matter and be a bad thing. Arguments about who's had it worse are totally useless--they're both oppression and discrimination, they're different, the end. A person's human rights don't depend on how badly they've been treated.</p>
<p>I will say that your assertions that gay people aren't oppressed make me want to laugh in your face. If you still insist on making this a comparison... when was the last time a racial minority was disowned by their parents and kicked out of their house for being the race they are? Gay bashings still happen, people still die because they've been perceived as LGBT (hear about Lawrence king? He was shot in the head by a classmate in February because he was gay. He was 15). No, technically someone can't know for sure what your sexual preferences are unless they see you having sex, but that hasn't stopped people from yelling "hey dyke, I'm gonna make you suck my ****" who had no hard evidence for my sexual orientation besides looking at me. Some of us are visibly variant; for myself, I wouldn't have it any other way. Some of us don't like constantly lying to the people around us. I like who I am, and I don't like lying. Don't mistake pride parades and other demonstrations of openness in the face of hatred for signs that the problem of discrimination has been solved. Society makes it really hard to be queer sometimes, and you're so clueless I want to laugh.</p>
<p>I have the right to marry a man because I'm legally female, but in most places in the US I don't have the right to marry the person I'm in love with. That's a right afforded to straight people and not to me without a compelling societal interest behind it; that's discrimination. I do not have the right in most places to legally bind myself by marriage to the person I want to share my life with and have children with; saying I'm not discriminated against because I could marry a man is ridiculous.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have the right to marry a man because I'm legally female, but in most places in the US I don't have the right to marry the person I'm in love with. That's a right afforded to straight people and not to me
[/quote]
Amen. I hear people say far too often that "marriage is the right to marry a person of the opposite gender. Thus, homosexuals are not being discriminated against - both straight and gay can marry people of the opposite gender." This is utterly ridiculous because marriage is not supposed to be the right to marry a person of the opposite gender, it's the right to marry the person you love.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The only way people know of your sexual orientation is if you tell them, or if they see you having sex with someone of the same sex.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You have clearly not thought through what it means to be gay. Everyday conversations that straight people breeze through unthinkingly are minefields for closeted gay people. Simple questions about what you did last weekend, if you have a boyfriend/girlfriend, whether you find a particular person attractive, etc. are threatening to gays who have to hide who they are. The person you love is your "roommate" or "good friend," and showing affection in public like straight people due to excess and take for granted is off-limits. </p>
<p>
[quote]
[quote]
I have the right to marry a man because I'm legally female, but in most places in the US I don't have the right to marry the person I'm in love with. That's a right afforded to straight people and not to me
[/quote]
Amen. I hear people say far too often that "marriage is the right to marry a person of the opposite gender. Thus, homosexuals are not being discriminated against - both straight and gay can marry people of the opposite gender." This is utterly ridiculous because marriage is not supposed to be the right to marry a person of the opposite gender, it's the right to marry the person you love.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm going to amen that again.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nice job glossing over the fact that sodomy laws were declared unconstitutional in Lawrence v. Texas in part because they were only being enforced when homosexual sodomy was involved.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didn't gloss over that. Of course gay men who routinely engaged in sodomy were at a higher risk of getting caught than straight couples who didn't do it at all. That still doesn't change the fact that they were often times for everybody, not just homosexual men.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Being gay doesn't need to be the same thing as being black for discrimination against queer people to matter and be a bad thing. Arguments about who's had it worse are totally useless--they're both oppression and discrimination, they're different, the end. A person's human rights don't depend on how badly they've been treated.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No need to lecture me. All I'm saying is people need to stop trying to draw parallels between gay people and Black people as a way of making an argument for gay rights. It's offensive, and I wouldn't blame people if they get turned off because of that. There are similarities, but ultimately they're not the same. I'm sorry, but cheapen the things the Black community has faced and still faces when you do that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I will say that your assertions that gay people aren't oppressed make me want to laugh in your face. If you still insist on making this a comparison... when was the last time a racial minority was disowned by their parents and kicked out of their house for being the race they are?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know I sound cruel, but this goes back to IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO DISCRIMINATE BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION, DON'T TELL THEM YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. You can give me all this "oh, gay people have to hide in the closet then?" Yes. Until you're in a position where you don't depend on other people for food, clothing, and shelter, you have to play by their rules. It sucks, but such is life. Your parents can disown because you wont pick up after yourself. It doesn't have to be due to their bigotry.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Gay bashings still happen, people still die because they've been perceived as LGBT (hear about Lawrence king? He was shot in the head by a classmate in February because he was gay. He was 15).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I heard about that, and yes, it was tragic. I'm not denying there aren't still bigoted, hateful people in the world gays have to watch out for. It's doubly unfortunate that this was a kid. But...like with Matthew Shepard and Lawrence v. Texas, almost every time something like this happens, there is some kind of congressional hearing or bill introduced to acknowledge it. </p>
<p>
[quote]
No, technically someone can't know for sure what your sexual preferences are unless they see you having sex, but that hasn't stopped people from yelling "hey dyke, I'm gonna make you suck my ****"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, sad, but that's not the same as overt oppression based on something people know. Not to take the side of the person who said that, if it was said, but they happened to strike a nerve. They didn't know for sure that you were gay. If you replace "dyke" with the n-word, they're saying that based on something they know for certain.</p>
<p>
[quote]
who had no hard evidence for my sexual orientation besides looking at me. Some of us are visibly variant; for myself, I wouldn't have it any other way. Some of us don't like constantly lying to the people around us. I like who I am, and I don't like lying. Don't mistake pride parades and other demonstrations of openness in the face of hatred for signs that the problem of discrimination has been solved. Society makes it really hard to be queer sometimes, and you're so clueless I want to laugh.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well go on and laugh. I see many gay people (not all) being just as separatist and bigoted as they claim the rest of society is. Accept not everybody is going to like you, and you make the choice to let people know what kind of sex you have. I still don't support gay marriage; I'm not going to picket and riot if it's ever legalized, but I'll never vote for it. </p>
<p>Defiant attitudes from people you don't agree with aren't fun, are they?</p>
<p>any true conservative would be for Gay marriage. so I am.</p>
<p>I'd imagine the only people who are against gay marriage at this point in time are the same people who went to the worst parties when they were young.</p>
<p>
I didn't gloss over that. Of course gay men who routinely engaged in sodomy were at a higher risk of getting caught than straight couples who didn't do it at all. That still doesn't change the fact that they were often times for everybody, not just homosexual men.
</p>
<p>Maybe you didn't read what he said. He said the laws were only enforced in cases of homosexual sodomy - not that there were more cases of homosexual sodomy (the latter is obvious). I'm beginning to think you're purposefully misinterpreting what people are saying as an argumentative tactic, because it happens almost every post.</p>
<p>
No need to lecture me. All I'm saying is people need to stop trying to draw parallels between gay people and Black people as a way of making an argument for gay rights. It's offensive, and I wouldn't blame people if they get turned off because of that. There are similarities, but ultimately they're not the same. I'm sorry, but cheapen the things the Black community has faced and still faces when you do that.
</p>
<p>...I don't even know what to say. Your only basis for distinguishing between the discrimination both groups face is that blacks face it based on skin color, and gays based on sexual orientation, and that blacks faced it more in the past. The former is irrelevant (more on that in a second), and the latter is true, but irrelevant to what happens now and in the future. As for what the "Black community ... still faces", I would postulate that at this point in time, gay people force worse discrimination than black people. Why? Because it is no longer socially acceptable to be racist, while it is very much socially acceptable to be homophobic, just as long as you're not horribly overt about it (think about it, when was the last time you heard somebody get away with calling someone "nigger" as an insult vs. calling them gay for the same insult... yeah, probably never). And that's that. You might disagree, but I'd love to hear your reasoning.</p>
<p>
I know I sound cruel, but this goes back to IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO DISCRIMINATE BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION, DON'T TELL THEM YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. You can give me all this "oh, gay people have to hide in the closet then?" Yes. Until you're in a position where you don't depend on other people for food, clothing, and shelter, you have to play by their rules. It sucks, but such is life. Your parents can disown because you wont pick up after yourself. It doesn't have to be due to their bigotry.
</p>
<p>Oh man. You just can't resist making upwards of a logical fallacy every sentence, can you?</p>
<p>It doesn't sound cruel to say what you just said, it is cruel. Now, your are correct in that a person must live by their parents' rules. However, if their parents made a rule that they would kick their children out if they were gay, that is bigoted. Pure and simple.</p>
<p>And by the way, the "you can hide your race" point you've made is very, very stupid. Black people (our hypothetical other discriminated group here) could easily hide their race too - just wear full head masks, long sleeves and gloves, and all that. Should they do that to avoid discrimination?</p>
<p>No. The fact that you continue to misunderstand is that it is not a gay person's fault that they are discriminated against for being gay - open, closeted, or anything else. It is the person's fault who is doing the discriminating. End of discussion.</p>
<p>
I heard about that, and yes, it was tragic. I'm not denying there aren't still bigoted, hateful people in the world gays have to watch out for. It's doubly unfortunate that this was a kid. But...like with Matthew Shepard and Lawrence v. Texas, almost every time something like this happens, there is some kind of congressional hearing or bill introduced to acknowledge it.
</p>
<p>Ooh, more of the famous "jaso9n2 tunnel vision". You think gays are overly sympathized with, so that's what you see. Never mind that even the mere suggestion of a racially-motivated judicial outcome drew thousands and thousands of protesters, official condemnations and the like (I'm talking about the Jena 6, by the way). No, this is not a gay-specific thing. People are just beginning to realize that discrimination is not acceptable. Which is very good.</p>
<p>
Again, sad, but that's not the same as overt oppression based on something people know. Not to take the side of the person who said that, if it was said, but they happened to strike a nerve. They didn't know for sure that you were gay. If you replace "dyke" with the n-word, they're saying that based on something they know for certain.
</p>
<p>So because people can't know for certain that a person is gay it's all right to be bigoted about it? Your opinions get more ridiculous every time I read them.</p>
<p>
Well go on and laugh. I see many gay people (not all) being just as separatist and bigoted as they claim the rest of society is. Accept not everybody is going to like you, and you make the choice to let people know what kind of sex you have. I still don't support gay marriage; I'm not going to picket and riot if it's ever legalized, but I'll never vote for it.
</p>
<p>Gay people are bigoted? In what way? Or are you just throwing out some more ridiculous accusations to distract from the weakness of your argument?</p>
<p>This argument isn't about liking gay people. Gay people accept that there are bigots out there (even one prominent one right here on this thread), and they know that that fact cannot be changed. No, this is about rights.</p>
<p>Gay people really, really don't care whether you or anyone else like them or not. In fact, I bet most of them would be just as happy never to interact with you. They just want to be able to express their love and devotion in the same way straight people can, and the same kind of commensurate civil rights. This is the classic stupid argument that anti-gay marriage people make. You don't have to like gay people. You just have to allow them the rights that they are entitled to. Just like the KKK member doesn't have to like blacks - that's no crime - they must just not infringe upon their rights. It's that simple.</p>
<p>
Defiant attitudes from people you don't agree with aren't fun, are they?
</p>
<p>No, bigots aren't fun.</p>
<p>I read the first 2 pages, and a few after.
I think that under most constitutions, a ban on gay marriage is illegal.
Suppose that I am being married to someone. This is a contract recognized by the State. I have a sex. The other person has a sex. Sex discrimination laws would prohibit discrimination against the person engaging in this contract on the basis of their sex.
While the above could play out in secular marriage, note this:
Few countries have specifically allow both religious freedom and the freedom to discriminate by enforcing religious doctrine. It's freedom to worship, not freedom to limit.</p>
<p>i wrote this earlier...any responses?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I meant to imply that it's ridiculous that people are arguing against gay marriage. But then i realized that people have innate (or environmentally induced or what have you) prejudices that make them weird o.0. So, they start genocides and spread irrational hate for certain demographics, like gays who wanna get married. C'est la vie.</p>
<p>Plus, people like people who are like them. Some people take that so far as saying that everyone must follow the same little rules of their religions/cults. Meh whatever i highly doubt this practice will ever disappear (before humanity disappears anyway).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know I sound cruel, but this goes back to IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO DISCRIMINATE BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION, DON'T TELL THEM YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, sure, sounds like fun. Think for a minute about what you're telling people to do.</p>
<p>Okay, let's say you have a girlfriend and, for whatever reason, a lot of people don't want you guys to be together, so you decide you're going to keep it a secret. It's damn hard to go out with your girlfriend, then. No movies, no dinners out, no walks in the park, if you might run into people you know. And holding her hand, hugging her, giving her a kiss on the cheek, showing any affection at all in public? Forget about it. Someone could see it and discriminate against you! I guess you could go over to each other's houses all the time, but you'd have to be real careful about that, too. A nosy neighbor would figure it out within two weeks- and I don't know about your neighborhood, but I have plenty of nosy neighbors. Oh, and there's no way in hell you can introduce her to your family, or vice versa, because then the **** really hits the fan. Not your friends, either. You can't even bring her up in conversation with them. Any time the "so, do you have a girlfriend?" topic comes up, you have to dodge the question like a ninja.</p>
<p>Sound like fun? Didn't think so. I refuse to live like that. I have the right to date whoever I want as openly as I want (short of making love to her on the town green), and I sure as hell should have the right to marry whoever it is I love. Bigots like you will not make me afraid to stand up and insist on those rights.</p>
<p>^ You make a great argument..my only disagreement is i kind of think PDA's are gross (homo and heterosexual ones)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe you didn't read what he said. He said the laws were only enforced in cases of homosexual sodomy - not that there were more cases of homosexual sodomy (the latter is obvious). I'm beginning to think you're purposefully misinterpreting what people are saying as an argumentative tactic, because it happens almost every post.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why are you even butting into my comment I made to someone else? They struck down sodomy laws because they violated rights to privacy, not just because law enforcement was picking on gay people.</p>
<p>
[quote]
...I don't even know what to say. Your only basis for distinguishing between the discrimination both groups face is that blacks face it based on skin color, and gays based on sexual orientation, and that blacks faced it more in the past. The former is irrelevant (more on that in a second), and the latter is true, but irrelevant to what happens now and in the future. As for what the "Black community ... still faces", I would postulate that at this point in time, gay people force worse discrimination than black people. Why? Because it is no longer socially acceptable to be racist, while it is very much socially acceptable to be homophobic, just as long as you're not horribly overt about it (think about it, when was the last time you heard somebody get away with calling someone "nigger" as an insult vs. calling them gay for the same insult... yeah, probably never). And that's that. You might disagree, but I'd love to hear your reasoning.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You shouldn't really be saying anything, as I wasn't talking to you. But, yeah. Racial discrimination and sexual orientation discrimination aren't the same thing, both for the obvious and not-so-obvious reasons. I think it's acceptable to be racist in some ways. You asked me about the n-word, but it's not acceptable to call someone a fag these days, either. Beyond that -- and here comes another difference -- blacks have fought much longer to fight against that word in the oppressive sense than gays have fought against "gay" or "fag". </p>
<p>
[quote]
Oh man. You just can't resist making upwards of a logical fallacy every sentence, can you?</p>
<p>It doesn't sound cruel to say what you just said, it is cruel. Now, your are correct in that a person must live by their parents' rules. However, if their parents made a rule that they would kick their children out if they were gay, that is bigoted. Pure and simple.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree. And it's their right to be that way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And by the way, the "you can hide your race" point you've made is very, very stupid. Black people (our hypothetical other discriminated group here) could easily hide their race too - just wear full head masks, long sleeves and gloves, and all that. Should they do that to avoid discrimination?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Of course not. But that's because skin color is naturally overt; sexual orientation isn't. You choose to let people know your sexual orientation. It's not something they can see just by looking at you. If you try to make it blatantly obvious, that's also your choice, but ultimately it's you who makes it known what kind of sex you like.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No. The fact that you continue to misunderstand is that it is not a gay person's fault that they are discriminated against for being gay - open, closeted, or anything else. It is the person's fault who is doing the discriminating. End of discussion.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Now who's committing a fallacy? I didn't gays bring discrimination on themselves. It's people's choice who they decide to hate. I'm saying gays are more in control of public perception than Blacks are, were, or ever will be, and idiots like you (and the person I was talking to) need to stop mixing them together like they're one in the same. They're not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ooh, more of the famous "jaso9n2 tunnel vision". You think gays are overly sympathized with, so that's what you see. Never mind that even the mere suggestion of a racially-motivated judicial outcome drew thousands and thousands of protesters, official condemnations and the like (I'm talking about the Jena 6, by the way). No, this is not a gay-specific thing. People are just beginning to realize that discrimination is not acceptable. Which is very good.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not the same. Blacks stick up for their own. The social (or judicial) dynamics in Jena didn't change, but it also says something about gays. Gay people haven't been ritualistically hung for decades before someone decided that hey, this is pretty messed up! But if you think of some of landmark incidences of homophobia, there's almost always been judicial activism. One I forgot about was how Don't Ask, Don't Tell came about...after a gay man who was in the Navy (I think) was brutally murdered. </p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
So because people can't know for certain that a person is gay it's all right to be bigoted about it? Your opinions get more ridiculous every time I read them.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Riiiight. Because that's exactly what I'm saying.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Gay people are bigoted? In what way? Or are you just throwing out some more ridiculous accusations to distract from the weakness of your argument?</p>
<p>This argument isn't about liking gay people. Gay people accept that there are bigots out there (even one prominent one right here on this thread), and they know that that fact cannot be changed. No, this is about rights.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, I've met gay people who are pretty much bigoted in any way anyone else is. And dude, whatever, if you think I'm a bigot, I couldn't care less. I'm not going to not say something because people want to hear what they want to hear. Marriage laws are about gender, not orientation, thus gays can marry. Men and women can't marry each other, and I don't support legislation allowing that. </p>
<p>
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Gay people really, really don't care whether you or anyone else like them or not. In fact, I bet most of them would be just as happy never to interact with you. They just want to be able to express their love and devotion in the same way straight people can, and the same kind of commensurate civil rights. This is the classic stupid argument that anti-gay marriage people make. You don't have to like gay people. You just have to allow them the rights that they are entitled to. Just like the KKK member doesn't have to like blacks - that's no crime - they must just not infringe upon their rights. It's that simple.
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<p>Oh, well, I don't see this as an issue of equal rights. And me not supporting gay marriage isn't infringing on their rights, considering I had no hand in any part of the decision to make marriage between men and women. People who disagree with it get to vote against it if they so choose. </p>
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No, bigots aren't fun.
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<p>Neither are idiots with chips on their shoulders.</p>
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Yeah, sure, sounds like fun. Think for a minute about what you're telling people to do.
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<p>I already did. </p>
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Okay, let's say you have a girlfriend and, for whatever reason, a lot of people don't want you guys to be together, so you decide you're going to keep it a secret. It's damn hard to go out with your girlfriend, then. No movies, no dinners out, no walks in the park, if you might run into people you know. And holding her hand, hugging her, giving her a kiss on the cheek, showing any affection at all in public? Forget about it. Someone could see it and discriminate against you! I guess you could go over to each other's houses all the time, but you'd have to be real careful about that, too. A nosy neighbor would figure it out within two weeks- and I don't know about your neighborhood, but I have plenty of nosy neighbors. Oh, and there's no way in hell you can introduce her to your family, or vice versa, because then the **** really hits the fan. Not your friends, either. You can't even bring her up in conversation with them. Any time the "so, do you have a girlfriend?" topic comes up, you have to dodge the question like a ninja.
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<p>Translation: "let's idealize the worst situation possible and turn the whole world into busybodies just to make my over-victimized yet totally unrealistic example even more emotionally manipulative." </p>
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Sound like fun? Didn't think so. I refuse to live like that. I have the right to date whoever I want as openly as I want (short of making love to her on the town green), and I sure as hell should have the right to marry whoever it is I love. Bigots like you will not make me afraid to stand up and insist on those rights.
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<p>And "bigots like me" aren't afraid to tell you that every parochial endeavor you dream up isn't suddenly a right, and you're wasting time on frivolous stuff when you could be trying to foster acceptance.</p>
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And "bigots like me" aren't afraid to tell you that every parochial endeavor you dream up isn't suddenly a right, and you're wasting time on frivolous stuff when you could be trying to foster acceptance.
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<p>For starters, I came into this thread because the point was to discuss marriage; how does that prove that I'm not trying to foster acceptance? (And why are you bothering to start a debate on something you consider "frivolous stuff," anyway?) Do you seriously think that the only thing I do related to the gay community is talk about this? If so, you're mistaken. I've talked to peer advocacy groups about my experiences as a lesbian, I've answered people's questions about sexuality and done what I can to promote tolerance. I don't know about you, but I'd say that's the very definition of trying to foster acceptance.</p>
<p>And you see, for me, fighting for the right to marry is a part of fostering acceptance- my government's acceptance of my relationship, the way the government accepts yours. I do believe that I have a right not to be treated as a second-class citizen based on who I love and want to marry- and furthermore, this right infringes on precisely zero of your rights, so I fail to see why you are so desperate to prevent me from getting it.</p>
<p>I've said everything I needed to say; if you won't even consider it from my point of view, there's little point in continuing. Enjoy your marriage privileges.</p>