<p>well this is quite an interesting thread. I feel like I have a lot to say, but being a person interested in science, I am not finding it easy to make it into a post that makes sense.</p>
<p>(joking...maybe I'll try again later, when I have more time!)</p>
<p>"One study tracked a cohort of men and women who had received postdoctoral fellowships from the National Science Foundation or the National Research Council. After adjusting for productivity, the women, in all the fields except biology, still held lower ranks than the men. The more prestigious the institution a woman was at, the lower was her rank; there was no such relationship for the men. Men were more likely than women to benefit from having an influential advisor, though both sexes were equally likely to have an influential advisor."</p>
<p>What do you mean by rank? If you don't make associate professor after 7 years, typically you have to leave so you wouldn't even be at the institution. When you say rank, are you referring to who gets promoted to full professor the fastest?</p>
<p>Also, when they were adjusting for productivity, did they also account for the prestige of the journals they were publishing in?</p>
<p>OK...so let me first say that I haven't read...merely skimmed the posts but I can so relate to this post!!!</p>
<p>Some stories:</p>
<p>My mother born in 1922 was a chemist....lucky for me she met my father who was an "up and coming" mathematician at a company called Interchemical in mid-town Manhattan. They met in the mid-1940s. Well, suffice it to say that the chemistry was right and I am # 6 of 8 children. </p>
<p>My mother graduated in 1945. According to her there were several women chemists in New York. The wage scales were definitely different, and truth be told, my mother was glad to leave the job force to have the 8 of us...(crazy woman she is!) Lucky for my mother that she had a degree and had continued to take college coursework....because she was widowed in her late 50s and returned to school and yes....was able to get a job in the chemistry field after a 30 year absence. Now she is 86 and her wisdom continues!!</p>
<p>OK....now fast forward to me and my daughters. I have a BA in Liberal Arts and an MS in Information Science. I am married to an Electrical Engineer (OK...so the daughter of a chemist and a math professor...what can you expect!) My daughters DEFINITELY are stronger in the math/science areas. Every test score and conversation will confirm this. Are they overall good students? Absolutely. They have achieved in all areas but without a doubt excel in math and science.</p>
<p>Were they discriminated against? </p>
<p>Here are more stories:
My youngest daughter -- long time ago when she was age 3 -- tells me -- Tommy told me I was playing in the wrong area today at school. I wanted to play with the blocks but Tommy told me that the girls should be playing in the kitchen...I looked and he was right.....I was in the wrong place! Lucky for my baby that we told her that she could play with blocks whenever she wanted to and that Tommy should be able to hang in the kitchen too! My baby's uncle hand carved her a set of wooden blocks.</p>
<p>Another story -- My older daughter went to a high tech college to discuss her college plans with a professor. (She was so excited about the school until our visit.) At this time of our visit she had successfully completed several AP courses in Computer Science and Math and had attended an intensive Governor's School in computer science. I kid you not that within a few minutes this older, very kind, exceptionally polite, distinguished professor said to MY DAUGHTER -- you do know that there is math involved in this program?...and continued to spout out several more very sexist directed comments and questions. At the end I asked him...what percentage of your program is women.....he replied....oh about 10% and I don't know why. I wanted to pull out a mirror....but he genuinely was a man of his generation and I truly believe he had no harm intended.</p>
<p>My daughter was especially discouraged and wouldn't even apply to the college. </p>
<p>Story 3: Someone mentioned in earlier comments that other cultures may not feel the same way towards their women....ok my D2 is in a pure science summer program. There are 21 students --- 7 are women --- 4 of these women are Asian, 1 is Indian and 2 (my daughter included) are Caucasian. </p>
<p>So....I'm hoping D2 will get some academic money to study Biology and Chemistry! I can't comment about Title IX specifically but yes...there is discrimination against females. Can they overcome it.....absolutely!</p>
<p>There already is AA for females in technical areas at all levels. I don't know what they mean by Title IX except to perhaps enforce quotas. </p>
<p>Title IX as it is normally applied seems to be incongruous with academia. In sports, men and women have to be separate, so it's important that the amount of funding for sports for men and women are equal and that they offer the same number of sports. In academia, there is no separation of men and women. When we just look at the definition of Title IX rather than how it is applied, it sounds like AA, which we already have. </p>
<p>BTW, my sister (who is also in a technical career) experienced the same situation when she was 3 where some boy told her she shouldn't play with trucks. My mother's conclusion was that the boy had wanted to play with dolls or something and the parents told him that he shouldn't because girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks. Frankly, I think most parents are more disturbed if their son wants to play with dolls than if their daughter wants to play with trucks and blocks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There already is AA for females in technical areas at all levels. I don't know what they mean by Title IX except to perhaps enforce quotas.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What? Quotas? Where?</p>
<p>Can you give some background or sources for this? I've been in the engineering profession for a very long time and I assure you I have never encountered quotas that required a certain number of women be hired or promoted in order to enhance the number of woman in the field.</p>
<p>In fact, the only instance I am aware of is MITs admission that strive to achieve an undergraduate population balanced for gender.</p>
<p>"A chicken is not a bird, a woman is not a chemist"
"Solvent fumes will dissolve your makeup, honey"
"Real chemists do not wear skirts"
"Let's hire someone who knows how to hold a screwdriver (during discussion of candidates for a chemistry position)"
^^It is a small sample of what I or my female colleagues have encountered in the beginning of our careers. I can say that things do change, but the progress is very slow. It will take a while for the 50/50 gender ratio among grad. students to translate into 50/50 ratio among professors.</p>
<p>My PhD program (biomedical sciences umbrella program: molecular, cellular, genetics, etc.) is actually more like 60% women to 40% men, and some other top programs in the field are ~2/3 female. Which is super. </p>
<p>But even though my program exceeds gender parity, I've still had professors say things to me that they'd never say to a male student. It's inordinately frustrating.</p>
<p>well, now I have a little more time...until The Daily Show starts anyway. it's good that I won't be able to go on like this forever.</p>
<p>I'm going to college next fall, for biological sciences. I never considered that I shouldn't do this because I'm a girl. I've always thought science was the best area of study, even though I do fine in the other ones too. I'm no math genius, but I enjoy learning it, and I'm willing to put it the time. I took APs in calc, chem, physics, and bio, and they were, overall, a very good experience. </p>
<p>I have not encountered an discrimination problems, even though most of my high school science teachers have been men. I think they are very good teachers. I am not discounting other people's stories, but maybe things are improving, at least in some places! currently, it is my attitude that my gender should have nothing to do with my abilities, and I am quite ambitious.</p>
<p>I don't think it would make any sense to artificially create a gender balance. do it through changing attitudes instead. I would be SO unhappy if I was a well-qualified male who was passed over for admission for the sake of a manufactured equality. on the other hand, the persistence of a subconscious assumption that women are incompetent (thinking of Gladwell's Blink, as someone else was here) is not acceptable either.</p>
<p>PS. I think it's interesting to bring up girls and boys in sports. this inequality in time devoted to practice is, it's sad to say, really convenient for girls like me who do put a lot of effort into getting good sports.</p>
<p>"In fact, the only instance I am aware of is MITs admission that strive to achieve an undergraduate population balanced for gender"</p>
<p>Well, first of all, MIT is certainly not the only school that does this. I would say that Caltech is the only school that does not favor females in the admissions process if they are going into technical careers. I didn't say there are quotas, though. It is my assumption is that Title IX will effectively produce quotas. </p>
<p>I won't comment on faculty hiring because I am not a faculty member.</p>
<p>BTW, the sexist quotes in post #46 don't surprise me, but I'm guessing some of the guys who made these remarks were old enough to have fought in the Korean War. For those of us that grew up in a time super-sensitive to political correctness, it's rare to encounter something like this. I remember in 3rd grade when the teacher read a sentence about a doctor and then asked a question. A boy raised his hand and started, "He...", referring to the doctor with the male pronoun. She immediately corrected him, "He or she..." Sexist attitudes are flushed out as the older generations retire.</p>
<p>faustarp --My older daughter also had very encouraging teachers in high school and she has had wonderful professors in college. This is what made her interview with the professor I described in my earlier post so frustrating. Hopefully he was the exception and not the norm.</p>
<p>I don't know what other high school students think but my daughters had excellent experiences with their teachers. Good teachers make all the difference!!</p>