General: How to compare Eng. Schools?

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>I am a rising senior who is interested in chemical engineering, but not really sure..so the ideal college would be strong in engineering in general. I've researched a lot of different colleges, but I'm not sure how to assess the program. From just reading through the forums, it seems that U.S. News rankings are debatable (why?). I've definitely looked at how the colleges would fit me and I to them, but the quality of the program is still top priority. So.... how do I really know how do I assess the quality of an engineering program compared to other ones? (goes with argument in Cooper vs. Cornell) stuff like focus on undergrad teaching or research and how would you know?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

2

<p>the US news rankings are solely for the graduate programs. most of the time those top schools don't give a crap about undergrad students cause their too busy with their research.</p>

3

<p>SAT scores are pretty good indicators. Also the peer assessment alone in USNWR.
Good engineering LACs:
Cooper union
harvey mudd
webb - naval engineering only though, but it looks like an awesome experience, totally free and you live in a mansion ala great gatsby.
rose hulman
olin.</p>

4

<p>SAT score is not a good indicator. The only good indicator is the peer assessment score from the USNWR.</p>

5

<p>The US News ranking of undergrad engineering programs is debatable because it suffers the same problem as all its other rankings suffer -- it tells you really nothing about the quality of teaching at the college.</p>

<p>Most engineering programs are accredited by the ABET (that officially stood for the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology but ABET has recently just dropped the official name and kept the acronym as its actual name). To qualify for acceditation colleges need to meet program requirments with the net effect that most of the math, science and engineering courses you will take will be the same at all colleges. What will differ from college to college is quality of teaching, quality of laboratories and research opportunities, and quality and opportunities for internships, coops, and recruitment for jobs. Those highly ranked in the USNews universities will usually have high quality labs, research programs, and employment opportunities. However, the quality of teaching can vary within each university from the extremely good teachers to those who can barely speak English or otherwise are awful teachers (but great researchers), and many large universities often have an inordinate number of the latter. There are smaller tech schools that consider the quality of teaching far more important than a professor's research and publications and qaulity of teaching can be top notch at those (e.g., Rose-Hulman)</p>

<p>Thus, when searching universities, some things to look into include: (a) what are its laboratory facilities like; (b) if published, found out about its employment opportunities -- e.g., who comes to its college job fairs, who hires its students for internships and graduates; that info is often published in some form on a college's website; (c) find out what you can about teaching quality -- what do students there say, ask when you visit, see if websites provide anything; note this last one can be a trade-off because your large universities may provide the greatest amount of research and employment opportunities but also be weaker than others on quality of teaching.</p>

6

<p>I answered this two years ago, but no sweat re-writing it. My son is in 3rd year of engineering, and an old faculty guy told me these tips when my S was in HS.</p>

<ul>
<li>The first few years, most engineering schools will be nearly identical. Diff eq. is the same pretty much anywhere, and you will have to do most of the heavy lifting yourself. You have to internalize both math and method, and there's not much difference among colleges in helping you do this. </li>
<li>Focus on the final year of undergrad engineering. This is where the colleges really differentiate themselves.</li>
<li>In particular, all colleges (for that ABET accreditation) must offer a "capstone" course. This is a senior design course, and the last thing you do before you can hang your shingle out that says "engener".</li>
</ul>

<p>There are several ways in which a capstone course can fail you. It's supposed to teach you how to take a project from start to finish. Some engineering schools assign "segments" of a large project to several different groups. As you can imagine, this "pipeline" approach doesn't give you experience with all parts of the project.</p>

<p>Some capstone courses are simply too large. In a 20-person group, chances are there will be those who achieve no learning whatsoever. </p>

<p>Finally, capstone courses are the faculty's last opportunity to teach you. They should have frequent interactions (weekly at least, multiple times a week would be best). TAs should not be leading capstone courses.</p>

<p>So, if you want to be thorough, you should pose the following questions to the universities you are considering:
1. How large are the groups in your projects/capstone course.
2. Is each group responsible for a whole project, or does one group feed into or take from another.
3. Who oversees the groups? If it is a TA or graduate student, how many other groups does he/she oversee.
4. How often does each capstone group meet with a professor? </p>

<p>I was told that these questions really put some distance between the engineering schools. And, my experience definitely confirms this. I found some schools had 29-student groups, while others had groups less than ten.</p>

<p>Hope this helps,
RB</p>

7

<p>Which were the schools that you found did the senior capstone correctly?</p>

8

<p>Just curious, were these capstone groups interdisciplanary, as in chemical, mechanical, electrical engineers all working together?
ditto midnight's question. What school does your son attend?</p>

9

<p>Thanks for the tips. I never new capstone project was that important and what US News looked at. Now I know what to ask when I go college visiting!</p>

10

<p>Hi gang. Our coices were: Northwestern, Purdue, Virginia Tech, and Purdue. (We live in VA, so in-state was the default choice, all things being equal.) Cornell, my alma mater, rejected him. Hmph. Their loss!</p>

<p>Northwestern never really responded to my questions. I could have pursued, but I expect more responsiveness for $40,000 per year.</p>

<p>Purdue and Virginia Tech had large groups, most of which were overseen by a TA. VA tech actually calculated the average capstone group size as 29.</p>

<p>UVA is a smaller, less-well known engineering school. Their average capstone size was nine. UVA has very few courses taught by TAs--none in my son's experience. The capstone course is no exception. </p>

<p>I looked at the capstone project writeups for systems engineering at UVA--their papers are published on the web. The groups consist only of systems engineers. I would expect the same would be true of EE, CS, ME, etc. I believe that is the industry standard: single-discipline capstone course. </p>

<p>UVA's projects appeared to be independent of one another and wholistic, requiring each group to execute all phases of the project.</p>

<p>So, we chose UVA. He's entering his third year, and he's really enjoying it. UVA has a lot more going for it than engineering--in fact the engineering school is much smaller than the dominant College of Arts and Sciences. He's doing a double major in economics, and finds those courses to be among his favorite. </p>

<p>Now, to be sure, by the way I built my criteria, size will not be a strength. VA Tech, for example, has a large "design floor" portion of a building devoted to student projects--a major investment that you would not find in many places. This is the first of many tradeoffs you will do in your engineering career!</p>

<p>I'm not sure that I've come upon the best way to evaluate engineering schools. I am sure, however, that I found a better way than the USNWR "popularity contest." </p>

<p>Cheers,
RB</p>

11

<p>Redbeard,</p>

<pre><code>Sounds like you all made a good choice. I recommend to all students that they only place a small glance on the "rankings". I would look at the big picture: quality of life, class size, motivation of professors towards teaching, school size, cost, location etc. and choose what fits best. I would have probably advised you to stay with UVA due to cost. I don't think the others would have been worth the extra cost. I got two degrees from Purdue and I would never recommend them for undergraduate education.
</code></pre>

12

<p>Why do the people who think the schools that are best rated for their engineering PhD programs automatically assume that the same schools offer an equal quality undergrad program? In most cases the opposite is true. </p>

<p>This is the 2005 US News ranking of engineering programs where undergrads are the exclusive focus. None of these schools offers a terminal engineering degree. Additionally, few of these schools use TA’s at all. (Never mind non-English speaking TA’s that you’d often find instructing undergrads in most "ranked" engineering PhD schools.)</p>

<p>Aerospace/Aeronautical/Astronomical
1. Embry Riddle Aeronautical U. (FL)
2. United States Air Force Acad. (CO)*
3. Embry Riddle Aeronautical U.–Prescott (AZ)
United States Naval Academy (MD)*
5. Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo*</p>

<p>Chemical
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2. Cooper Union (NY)
3. Rowan University (NJ)*
4. Bucknell University (PA)
5. University of Minnesota–Duluth*</p>

<p>Civil
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2. United States Military Academy (NY)*
3. Cooper Union (NY)
4. Bucknell University (PA)
5. Harvey Mudd College (CA)</p>

<p>Computer Engineering
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2. Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo*
Cooper Union (NY)
4. Harvey Mudd College (CA)
5. Milwaukee School of Engineering</p>

<p>Electrical/Electronic/Communications
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2. Cooper Union (NY)
3. Harvey Mudd College (CA)
4. Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo*
5. United States Air Force Acad. (CO)*</p>

<p>Industrial/Manufacturing
1. Kettering University (MI)
2. Bradley University (IL)
3. Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo*
4. University of Michigan–Dearborn*
Univ. of Wisconsin–Platteville*</p>

<p>Mechanical
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN)
2. Cooper Union (NY)
3. United States Military Academy (NY)*
4. Harvey Mudd College (CA)
5. Bucknell University (PA)</p>

13

<p>Toblin, the same engineering prof who talked to me about the "capstone test" mentioned several of these universities by name. Specifically, Bucknell, Cooper Union, and Rose-Hulman. It's an interesting concept: for undergraduate education, look for the people who specialize in undergraduate education.</p>

<p>In the hours between, I had an interesting conversatoin with my son. He says that UVA is unique in that engineering is not the primary focus of the university. His interactions with the artists and scientists are stimulating, enriching, and memorable. The non-engineering students at UVA are serious students as well, in his experience. This may not be so at a school where the "best" students go into the engineering school and the other departments have become an academic consolation prize. </p>

<p>Worth considering because, as you all know, college includes interactions with and learning from everyone on campus--not just those in your major.</p>

<p>RB</p>

14

<p>Redbeard,</p>

<pre><code>You took the words right out of my mouth. That's what I preach on these boards. Students will get a better education at places that focus on teaching you.
</code></pre>

15

<p>Schools that focus on engineering. I think schools that have a reputation for having rigourous schools/schools where people work hard are going to have the best engineering departments.</p>

<p>It's really important to know what you want out of your engineering degree. If you want it to get into consulting/management(corporations that value engineers for their analytical skills but not actually engineering) than I suggest going to a school thats more well rounded. If you want to head off to grad school/do hardcore research/engineering I suggest going to a school that has a strong engineering program within the college(like its an emphasis).</p>

<p>UVA's engineering program is considered soft but still a great program. I think its in the best interest of engineers there to minor in business and take off into the corporate world, because thats what the school is known for. Also I think they are having trouble w/engineering department, especially since the arts and sciences college at UVA contains over 75% of the students. </p>

<p>Some great schools that have strong focus on engineering: MIT, CalTech, CMU, Berkeley, Stanford, Cornell,</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
1. How large are the groups in your projects/capstone course.
2. Is each group responsible for a whole project, or does one group feed into or take from another.
3. Who oversees the groups? If it is a TA or graduate student, how many other groups does he/she oversee.
4. How often does each capstone group meet with a professor?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>redbeard,</p>

<p>Your approach was interesting and I am glad your son is enjoying UVA. However, I am afraid this approach can only screen out the bad ones rather than picking out the good ones. Even it's too late already, I can actually answer those questions regarding Northwestern just FYI. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>In chemE (I can only speak for my major), we have 2 design courses(thanks to the quarter system; most semester-schools have only one course)--Design I and Design II. My design classes had about 5 or 6 groups of three. My class had only half of the graduating seniors because there were usually two sessions offered in a given quarter. </p></li>
<li><p>All groups have the same wholistic design project. I actually don't see how a professor can grade fairly when a project is "pipelined" because different phases have different difficulty. It's like comparing apples to oranges if you try to grade based on curve.</p></li>
<li><p>The design classes had about 2 weeks of lectures at the beginning and were overseen by two professors. </p></li>
<li><p>Each gorup met about once a week with both professors after first 2 weeks of lectures.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>So Northwestern seems to pass the "screening" but it doesn't mean it's great necessarily. Those questions refer nothing about the difficulty and quality of the projects. Luckily, I found that my projects at Northwestern were fun and challenging (the program is ranked 12th by US News).</p>

<p>Also FYI, Northwestern has a "Engineering First" curriculum that expose freshmen to engineering design and communication. The design projects actually come from industry clients so that they are real world ones. Though students may not be able to deliever the products the clients want because of their limited experience (that's before they even declare their engineering major) but I heard some were pretty good and quite close! In any case, the curriculum is innovative and different from most other schools'. Piloted in 1997, the feedback has been very positive. Most people at first found the 4-course sequence very challenging because you try to absorb concepts from different disciplines (for example, you learn matrix, some part of mechanics, certain areas of physics and differential equations and using matlab) in the same class and try to integrate them for your projects, whatver they are. This multidisciplinary approach takes time to get used to.</p>

17

<p>Sam, we expected nothing less from Northwestern. I know some excellent NW engineers, and we spent a long time with the faculty during our campus visit. </p>

<p>If the dang place weren't so expensive, I believe my S would have gone there and had a superb college experience. I'm sure you are only one of their many satisfied customers. </p>

<p>You would be surprised how many schools are actually "weeded out" by this test. Some of them are supposedly top-notch, according to USNWR. Remember our goal: put some daylight between the "outstanding" engineering schools. </p>

<p>FWIW, many semester-based schools do a two-semester capstone course. </p>

<p>All the best,
RB</p>

18

<p>Leading edge Engineering Capstone programs:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.memagazine.org/supparch/medesign/cap/cap.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.memagazine.org/supparch/medesign/cap/cap.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

19

<p>When I went to Purdue, teams of six students worked on the senior design project. Faculty chose the teams, the team leaders, and the project. The faculty team instructing the course were all professors. Attendance was mandatory. The class met for three hours on Saturday morning, starting at 7:30 AM. (!!!) Even though each team worked together on a single project, team members frequently received different grades. The grades were based on attendance, the student's ongoing effort and teamwork, a team presentation at the end of the course, an individual interview with the professors, and the quality of the portion of the design for which the student had primary responsibility. All in all, the project experience was not significantly different from real design projects I worked on later.</p>

<p>Of course, I've no idea if Purdue still does senior design that way, nor if the senior design project set-up varies from one engineering discipline to another. The latter may well be true because I don't recall students in other engineering disciplines complaining about those Saturday AM classes.</p>

20

<p>It's interesting how people on this thread support the idea that LACs are better for an undergraduate education than the famous, bigger sized schools. A lot of the people on other forums ridicule places like HMC, Olin, RHIT, Cooper when comparing them to places like Cornell and Michigan. They feel that the bigger sized schools have the name and fame and money and therefore; in the their opinion, comparing LACs with the big schools isn't a legit comparison.</p>

<p>But this thread is different because people here are really supportive of the smaller sized, elite institutions.</p>