<p>This is useful information, notrich, and thanks for the support. </p>
<p>Another thing that I’m interested in is early decision. My daughter applied to her school early decision and we didn’t plan on getting financial aid. I’ve advised people (not sure if correctly) that you better not apply ED if you need financial aid because the school can give you aid in the form of 100% loans and then you can’t withdraw. I think there was a story about a family with 3 kids and an income of $50,000 and NYU offered them $40,000 in loans.</p>
<p>I spoke to my daughter’s school this week to ask about our hypothetical situation. The financial aid officer there said that if my son applied ED and we weren’t happy with aid package, he could withdraw. But I don’t think that’s true. My daughter’s high school immediately withdrew all of her other applications when she got accepted to her ED school. She had gotten several nice merit aid offers from schools she applied to early action but couldn’t attend them. </p>
<p>My friend’s daughter wants to apply to a school ED and needs aid to go. I think if they don’t give her what she needs, I don’t think the high school will let her back out. The high school is in the same city as this prestigious private university so I don’t think they’d want to risk angering them.</p>
<p>*The financial aid officer there said that if my son applied ED and we weren’t happy with aid package, he could withdraw. But I don’t think that’s true. My daughter’s high school immediately withdrew all of her other applications when she got accepted to her ED school. She had gotten several nice merit aid offers from schools she applied to early action but couldn’t attend them. *</p>
<p>Yes you can decline ED if FA is not enough. Your child’s school should have made sure your D was accepting before withdrawing other apps and declining other EA acceptances.</p>
<p>To prevent that from happening again, I would inform the GC at school that they aren’t to do anything until they hear from your family what your child is going to do. Some kids get better offers from EA or rolling schools and either accept those or use those to find out if they can get a better offer from their ED school…so some time is needed.</p>
<p>Usually, after an ED acceptance, a student has a week or two to decide to accept.</p>
I don’t understand how the high school could withdraw her applications. She would have had to do that herself.</p>
<p>FWIW, here is my take on ED:</p>
<p>Even though your kid signs something that says if accepted they must attend and withdraw their other applications, this is not legally binding, if for no other reason that they are not 18 when they sign it and therefore cannot sign a contract. </p>
<p>There is an out if you feel it is not affordable after seeing the FA package you get. I think this is explicitly stated on the Common App. It is important to note that the <em>family</em> decides whether it is affordable, not the school. And anyway, what school is going to force your kid to attend if they don’t want to be there? The college is not going to get angry, the number of kids who back out of ED is like 1-2%.</p>
<p>Some guidance counselors feel that ED is like a blood oath of some sort. They get bent out of shape when a kid backs out of an ED decision because they think it reflects badly on the GC and the high school, and will somehow impact the willingness of colleges to admit students from this high school down the road. I think this is BS. Maybe the GC could poison your apps by writing a bad recommendation or something else, but they would be setting themselves up for major trouble IMO.</p>
<p>The high school doesn’t control where you go to college. Any interference between your kid and any other college, or unwillingness of the school to perform their required duties such as sending transcripts, is almost certainly actionable and I doubt it would take more than a strongly worded letter to get them to back down.</p>
<p>Many here on CC feel you should not apply ED if you need FA because you can’t compare packages. ED acceptance rates can be double regular acceptance rates at some schools, so it really is a big advantage to apply ED. And if the school meets your full need, or gives you nothing, the decision is easy. But what if the school only meets half your need? Now your are in a bind - if you accept you don’t know whether some school may have given you more, and if you back out it may turn out that the ED school had the best package. Quite a dilemma.</p>
<p>Your friend should probably have a talk with the GC beforehand to set expectations, so they know there is a chance of backing out of ED if the money isn’t there. Then they can have it all resolved up front.</p>
<p>ED has to be binding otherwise it’s meaningless. If everyone has an out by just saying that they didn’t get the financial aid they want then the system wouldn’t work for the colleges. I think if a highschool let someone withdraw from an ED acceptance it might affect the prospects of future kids from that school and I wouldn’t think most schools would back down that easily. And about talking to the school beforehand and telling them that there’s a chance of backing down? This is a very selective school and I would expect that they’d throw her application right in the trash if she suggested that she might turn down an ED acceptance.</p>
<p>And I don’t think you have a dilemma if the school only meets half your need. I think you have to go there anyway. That’s why it would be nice to be able to know what a school might offer before you apply but I don’t think it’s verifiable. Can’t they always just offer loans?</p>
<p>amazon, here’s the contractual language for ED from the Common App. I say contractual because this is from the agreement that the parent or guardian signs.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>and </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The schools assume that the family has done their homework. That means not only has the student decided that this is the school they love, it also means that the family has investigated what kind of aid package they can expect from the school. Some schools (usually the most selective) will meet full need (as defined by the school) without loans. If the parents go through the numbers and estimators and know they can pay their EFC, then it’s a safe bet to apply to those schools ED. Other schools are known for not meeting full need, or are notorious for including lots of loans in their packages (NYU, cough cough). Not such a good idea to apply to those schools ED. </p>
<p>Colleges include this wriggle room because otherwise ED becomes overwhelmingly something that only very well-off families can use. The wriggle room language gives them a fig leaf where they can talk about how family finances are no barrier to ED. I agree, though, with your feeling that ED is all wrong for families that want or need to compare offers.</p>
<p>amazon, don’t know about BU. It would definitely be worth checking out on the BU forum here on CC, or asking in the Parents forum what kind of experiences people had in the past. NYU is pretty notorious. </p>
<p>I think the wriggle room really does exist, but that people can’t use it as an easy out. I can’t come up with a good example, it’s a “know it when you see it” kind of thing. A bad example (because I’m making it up) would be if a student with an EFC of $55k applies ED to Ivy Well Known For Big ED Admissions Boost. The family has said that they can only afford to pay $30k a year, but they figure that they can negotiate with IWKFBEDAB if the kid is admitted. The kid does get in, is offered nada, and then the family tries to get IWKFBEDAB to cough up some money. Remember, I’m making this up, I have no idea if something like this actually happens, but if it did, I’d expect IWKFBEDAB to release the kid and then quite possibly blackball him from other Common App schools.</p>
<p>Amazon the language is clear, if you cannot write the check then you can decline the acceptance of ED. I believe statistically the group of families that decline an ED offer is quite small. If you want to “shop around” college costs and there is no “single choice, one and only college to attend” then clearly don’t go ED. It’s really pretty straightforward. If there’s one end all be all college and there’s a high degree of family certainty that they can afford the costs, then it’s a great option. The college lock in kids that really want to attend and the kids don’t spend six months on apps, essays and all that stuff. Utilized for the correct reasons it’s a win, win.</p>
It is not <em>legally</em> binding. Most people willingly live up to the agreement, though, because they really want to go there (there’s a reason they are applying ED!). And yes, if a large percentage were reneging, the ED system would fall apart and evolve into something else, or the schools would all switch to EA. Some colleges have already abandoned ED in favor of EA. But the percentage that renege is quite small.
No, you don’t have to go. The <em>family</em> gets to decide whether it is affordable or not, not the school.</p>
<p>And, IMO, loans are not “aid”, and I hate that they get lumped under the “financial aid” umbrella. When I borrowed money to buy my house, the bank didn’t give me “financial aid”, they gave me a loan.</p>
<p>A family has an EFC of $25K. Kid has their heart set on High-Ranked Private U ($55K/year), which has a good track record of giving financial aid, but does not guarantee to meet full need.</p>
<p>Kid applies ED, gets in, and gets his package. His package has one line - “Loans: $30,000”.</p>
<p>This family cannot be (and should not be) forced to borrow $120,000 to send their kid to HRPU because they applied ED with a reasonable expectation of FA.</p>
<p>I have my doubts that there is any kind of blacklisting or blackballing going on, either, in those rare cases when someone declines an ED. What would be the point?</p>
<p>notrichenough, good example, and I agree with your analysis.</p>
<p>Maybe someone can comment on blacklisting or blackballing, and if it exists or if it’s a scary tale told to make people take ED seriously. The point would be for the colleges to demonstrate the serious commitment of applying ED. The hypothetical student in my hypothetical example should clearly be applying RD, regardless.</p>
<p>Slithey (after reading your posts, I can’t get Jabberwocky - which I memorized as a kid - out of my head!) - what’s IWKFBEDAB?</p>
<p>Momof3 - counselor I talked to said, “apply - if you don’t get the aid you want then you can decline”. I think this was misleading. This is not the same as saying, “Only apply if there’s a high degree of family certainty that you can afford costs”.</p>
<p>ED has to be binding otherwise it’s meaningless. If everyone has an out by just saying that they didn’t get the financial aid they want then the system wouldn’t work for the colleges.</p>
<p>*here’s the contractual language for ED from the Common App…</p>
<p>Quote:
Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment. *</p>
<p>Yes…for this reason, ED has a meaningless aspect since for financial reasons a student can decline. I wonder if that’s why some schools are getting rid of ED. I like EA and SCEA much better. </p>
<p>There are ED schools that don’t meet need or may have a way of figuring family contribution that the family cannot afford. </p>
<p>However, a student can decline for FA reasons, then later find out that the ED school gave the best aid and end up at another school and end up paying more. </p>
<p>if you want to compare offers, then you shouldn’t apply ED. </p>
<p>*Some guidance counselors feel that ED is like a blood oath of some sort. They get bent out of shape when a kid backs out of an ED decision because they think it reflects badly on the GC and the high school, and will somehow impact the willingness of colleges to admit students from this high school down the road. I think this is BS. *</p>
<p>I agree. NO school or GC can be held accountable for not knowing each student’s financial info and ability to pay for college. </p>
<p>Another problem is that some GCs overstep their bounds by contacting schools to withdraw apps without info from student/family. It’s outrageous that your D’s school did that especially when your D had some better EA school offers on the table.</p>
<p>What’s MAQ? No one is being forced to read or respond to this thread. I thought even if you go through the formulas, different private colleges will probably do different things, which is what the college I called said. They said, probably no money but unknowable without applying.</p>
<p>I agreed with guidance counselor’s actions. I don’t think my daughter should have been able to take the other offers after being accepted ED to another school.</p>
<p>And, IMO, loans are not “aid”, and I hate that they get lumped under the “financial aid” umbrella. When I borrowed money to buy my house, the bank didn’t give me “financial aid”, they gave me a loan. </p>
<hr>
<p>The government guarantees student loans so that students with bad credit or no credit can still get loans … and at a fixed rate … with in school deferment … and there is a grace period … and there are multiple repayment options … and consolidation is offered. So this is “aid” in the sense that the government is guaranteeing all students something they probably can’t get in the free market & taking a risk that many times doesn’t pay off.</p>
<p>As for my comment regarding complaining about the way aid works: It’s fine to vent, complain, etc. It’s just that too often here and in real life I come up against folks who spend an awful lot of time and energy complaining even after they are told “the way it is.” Truly, if folks don’t like it, they need to try to change it. Otherwise, it will never change.</p>
All true. But you still have to pay it back. My definition of “aid” doesn’t encompass “we will make it ridiculously easy to go into debt”.</p>
<p>And I would argue that overly easy access to credit is a Bad Thing. See: the mortgage crisis. It pushes up prices for everyone, there is no escape from the debt (at least with a mortgage you can declare bankruptcy), and I think a crisis where the gov’t (iow you and I) will be expected to bail everyone out is inevitable. </p>
<p>I get that student loans have their place - without them many people would be unable to attend college. But how many more use them to upgrade from a Chevy to a Cadillac, when all they can really afford is a Chevy?</p>
<p>Getting way off topic here. </p>
<p>
Kelsmom, I respect your posts because you are one of the few truly authoritative voices on CC, and I have learned a lot from you. But being snarky isn’t the answer either.</p>
<p>To quote a previous poster, FWIW, here is my take on ED:</p>
<p>ED is for students whose ONLY concern is maximizing their chances of being admitted to their dream school. It should NEVER be used by someone depending on FA. </p>
<p>And here’s a little story about top schools that “meet 100% of need”. I applied to several such schools. They all had the same FAFSA, the same CSS, yet the range of FA offers was large. Also, they WILL negotiate. In one example, Washington University made an offer my Dad thought was very low. He called, they checked it and said it was correct. He then told them that Duke’s offer was 9k better, … they said: “fax us the offer and we’ll match it”, which they did. Since WashU let’s you KEEP outside scholarships where Duke does not, … with one phone call WashU went from an inferior offer to a BETTER offer then Duke … IF you get bogged down with ED commitments, you very likely won’t get the best deal …</p>
<p>*What other schools are “notorious” for giving lots of loans? How’s BU? *</p>
<p>Since BU does NOT meet need and will gap, it’s the same as a school that gives big Plus loans in an FA Package since a Plus loan can be used to fill a gap.</p>
IF you get bogged down with ED commitments, you very likely won’t get the best deal …</p>