General questions about Princeton admission

<p>2 big questions I have......</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Is princeton biased at all towards the SAT vs. the ACT? i'm much better at the ACT, and i'm improving with the SAT, but if there is a bias towardds the SAT i'm going to focus a lot more on that. I know many east coast colleges and Ivies are more biased, but i'm from the midwest, where the ACT is more popular. </p></li>
<li><p>What is princetons EA acceptance rate, and does it increase my chances if i apply EA? princeton is for sure my number 1 school.</p></li>
</ol>

<ol>
<li><p>They say they have no preference, and there is no reason not to believe that.</p></li>
<li><p>Overall acceptance rate around 8% or so, but if you factor out the athletes, URMs and legacies, the rate for the unhooked is probably around 5%. Princeton SCEA will be very competitive.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>alright, thanks. it’s just that i’ve heard stories about people with 36 ACT getting rejected almost solely on the basis of not doing well on the SAT. probably just urban legend…</p>

<p>on a side note, do you know what percentage SCEA applicants were deferred as well?</p>

<p>whoops, read your post incorrectly…and completely forgot that SCEA begins during next years cycle. </p>

<p>but i’ve read about past SCEAs at princeton having acceptance rates of about 25%…why don’t you think that trend will continue?</p>

<p>Princeton never had SCEA. It had Early Decision until four years ago. The dynamics of the two programs are different; because ED is binding and does not permit comparing financial aid offers, many fewer students are willing to apply ED than EA. The colleges with the most ED applications get many fewer early applications than comparable EA schools, even if the overall application numbers are the same or reversed. (Compare Penn and Cornell, large ED schools, with Chicago and MIT, smaller EA schools. Or, for that matter, Princeton and Yale five years ago.) As a result, there is never as much difference between admission rates EA vs. RD compared to ED vs. RD.</p>

<p>Princeton’s former ED acceptance rate was based on selecting half its class from a relatively small pool of applicants (including most of its recruited athletes, as well as many legacy candidates). It came in for a lot of criticism for that, which had a lot to do with why it abandoned the program altogether. If I were guessing, I would guess that with SCEA Princeton will be accepting about the same number of people early (600-700) from a much bigger pool of applicants.</p>

<p>shrey: if a person w/ a 36 ACT and a less than 2400 SAT got rejected, you can be absolutely sure it had nothing to do with scores. Period. Your rumor source is just wrong – as if he were privy to the real reason why anyone would be accepted/rejected from Princeton to begin with.</p>

<p>The history of shifting admission policies at Princeton and at its peers is certainly convoluted.</p>

<p>JHS is correct in stating that Princeton never had a restrictive single choice early action (SCEA) program like Yale’s. Rather, it had had a completely open non-restrictive “early action” program prior to its later switch to early decision. In fact, Princeton has had, at various times in the past, early decision, early action and no early program at all. As most of you are aware, Princeton has switched now to single choice early action, a policy that will apply for the applicants to the class of 2016. Harvard, Princeton, Stanford and Yale will now have nearly identical admission policies (with the exception of Stanford’s athletic scholarships). I know from conversations with admission officers that Princeton did not want to make this move. The Dean of Admission had been very critical of early action programs and was happy to get rid of Princeton’s as soon as Harvard announced it was doing the same. However, once Harvard announced the move to SCEA, Princeton’s being left as the only school within this group of four that did not offer an early program seemed to be unsustainable so the switch was made. </p>

<p>There are both strong advocates and critics of early programs. College counselors from the more elite high schools and the students they represent tend to support the programs and it certainly can be satisfying to have finished the college application process in December. Academics who study higher education policies tend to oppose them. In the past, lower income students had been poorly represented in the early pools. In recent years that appears to have changed.</p>

<p>Harvard, Princeton and Yale have all reversed their positions. At Princeton, the former Dean of Admission, Fred Hargadon, was a strong advocate of restrictive early programs. He argued, with some justification, that restrictive early programs reduce the number of applications clogging the system and allowed students to indicate their first choices in an effective manner. </p>

<p>Yale’s President Levin took just the opposite view. At that time, Yale, like Princeton, had an early decision program and Levin railed against such programs in the national press, including a much-discussed New York Times story. Levin stated that he thought all schools should give up their restrictive early programs for the sake of a fairer system for all applicants but that Yale would not be able to go it alone and that there would need to be simultaneous common action among all of the more competitive schools. </p>

<p>Not long after that, Yale and Stanford moved part way in this direction by switching to SCEA. Princeton did not follow. When Princeton’s new Dean of Admission began discussions with the trustees regarding this issue, she took the same position as had Levin, that all restrictive early programs should go, but that Princeton would wait until there was agreement with others about dropping them simultaneously and entirely. When Harvard then announced four years ago that it would drop its early program, Princeton immediately followed suit (as did UVA). Strangely, Yale’s Levin, who had been an outspoken leader in criticizing early programs now became a defender of them, arguing that the SCEA program served Yale well and would be kept. There was a certain amount of snickering in the academic community over the hypocrisy associated with this sudden change of heart since retaining SCEA would give Yale and Stanford certain admission advantages over their peers, but Levin and Yale’s new Dean of Admission stuck with it. Editorialists in the Yale Daily News questioned Levin’s motives but their peers at the Stanford Daily came out strongly for restrictive early programs and belittled Harvard’s, Princeton’s and UVA’s moves.</p>

<p>When Princeton and Harvard dropped their early programs, they saw an immediate drop in their matriculation rates. Even Harvard, which, among universities, tends to be the most immune to changes such as this, saw its matriculation rate drop from the low 80% range to the mid to high 70% range. Princeton saw a larger drop of about 9% in its matriculation rate when it gave up binding ED. Since this change, it appears that matriculation rates at both schools may have stabilized. The second year after dropping the early programs, both schools saw an increase in their matriculation rate. The third year both saw a slight drop and this last year both once again saw an increase in yield. </p>

<p>It’s anyone’s guess what might happen next year now that all four of these institutions have similar policies. Here is mine. Princeton’s applicant pool will increase and its acceptance rate will decrease. There will be an equalization of yields with Princeton’s rising and Yale’s dropping so that the two of them are about the same. Harvard’s yield will increase and Stanford’s will drop. The significant number of athletic scholarships given by Stanford will still keep its yield higher than Princeton’s and Yale’s. </p>

<p>As JHS has pointed out, ED schools (including Princeton when it had that admission program) tend to matriculate about half their classes from the early pool. What is less well known is that this can be true of early action schools as well. Stanford has tended to accept fewer of its early applicants and deferred fewer as well. At Yale, on the other hand, the total percentage of each completed class that had originally applied early action is approximately 50%. This includes the students originally accepted through SCEA as well as those who are deferred and then later accepted in the regular pool. Perhaps not surprisingly, those who are deferred from the early pool have already shown a preference and are more likely to matriculate if accepted from the regular pool.</p>

<p>Among these four schools in particular, it’s a complicated dance, but regardless of the shifting admission policies they will undoubtedly all matriculate strong classes once again this year and on into the future.
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<p>I don’t disagree with anything PtonGrad2000 wrote above, except for one interesting note: Go read the Harvard policy. Harvard isn’t calling it “Single Choice Early Action”, just “Early Action.” And it doesn’t read like a clone of Yale’s rules – it is significantly less restrictive. There are some major ambiguities they ought to clear up – the biggest one being whether it’s OK to apply EA simultaneously to other non-restrictive private EA institutions. Maybe it was just an incredible oversight on Harvard’s part not to make it clear that was forbidden . . . but whoever wrote Harvard’s policy sure did a bad job of forbidding it.</p>

<p>Even if Harvard doesn’t let you apply EA to Harvard, MIT, Georgetown, and Chicago at the same time, it will still be much less restrictive than Yale.</p>

<p>The situation for elite colleges and early admissions programs is pretty dynamic right now. If you are in 11th grade, don’t assume that whatever is happening this year will be unchanged next year.</p>

<p>JHS</p>

<p>I believe you are correct. Under Harvard’s rules, it appears that you can apply to any non SCEA school, including public schools such as University of Michigan and private schools such as MIT. This seems to differ from Princeton’s rules, which prohibit applying to any other early action programs.</p>

<p>I believe that this will be a significant draw for Harvard and probably increase the number of early applications there.</p>

<p>I wanted to post an update on the Harvard EA program. The website appears to have changed, and now Harvard’s policy is as follows:</p>

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</p>

<p>So now it appears that Harvard and Princeton have the same early action policy.</p>

<p>Sorry to hijack the thread, but I am in much the same situation as shrey. Princeton is my #1 choice and, knowing it as such, my guidance counselor has recommended that I apply SCEA. He argues that, while I will likely be deferred during the SCEA round (I’m unhooked from NJ), an SCEA application will prove advantageous during the round of regular decisions (as the admissions office will see that Princeton is my #1 choice, and they realize that I will matriculate if accepted, helping their yield). While statistically SCEA does not provide an advantage, is there any truth to what my guidance counselor has been saying? Of course, only the admissions office can truly know the answer to that, but any insights would be appreciated. I’m unsure what to do!</p>

<p>It’s certainly true that applying SCEA is a good way of signaling that Princeton is your first choice and that you would probably attend if accepted. </p>

<p>What isn’t so clear is whether that matters at all, or how much. There will probably be something like 5,000 people who apply to Princeton EA, and between EA and RD maybe 800 of them will be admitted. Another 1,500 or so applicants will be admitted RD without making that signal. Lesser colleges do worry about yield a lot, and the admissions people at Princeton may worry about it a little, but it is only going to be a little. They know that most of the people they accept, EA or RD, are going to come. They know that reinstituting EA is going to boost their yield over what it has been the past few years. They may not care beyond that. I don’t think they are going to sit around in March when they make their final decisions and say, “Well, X is the better student, but Y is more likely to come if we accept him, so let’s pick Y.” It is conceivable that they could be saying “We can’t really tell the difference between X and Y, but Y applied EA so he may love us more.” That’s not ever going to be a negative, but it’s not a huge positive, either.</p>

<p>The other thing that no one can know is whether you will be deferred. You may be accepted EA. If you ARE going to be accepted to Princeton, and you apply EA, you will probably get accepted EA. Deferred EA applicants do get accepted, but all the evidence from places that have had EA continuously is that they don’t get accepted in a percentage that is meaningfully different from the rest of the RD pool.</p>

<p>It’s a mistake to spend too much time thinking about the “game” aspects of this. If you know without doubt that Princeton is your first choice, and you think you are a good candidate, and you don’t mind giving up the chance to apply EA to multiple other schools, then by all means apply SCEA to Princeton and see what happens. If you wish you could go to Princeton but don’t think you are a good candidate, then you should probably make other plans.</p>

<p>Thanks for such a thought out response! I see what you’re saying about over-thinking this, so, as Princeton is (and has been) my #1 choice, I think I will just apply SCEA and see what happens.</p>

<p>The only other school that I’m “sacrificing” applying to early would be Georgetown (EA), although, even if I do get in, I wouldn’t be able to pay (so it’s really not much of a sacrifice).</p>

<p>With Princeton’s SCEA, are you still allowed to apply for priority deadlines for scholarship consideration? I think that UMD and Emory’s major scholarships require applying by November 1, even though I don’t think these are called Early Action programs.</p>

<p>Of course you can meet deadlines for priority scholarship consideration. Every SCEA program’s rules have always specifically allowed that; Princeton can’t possibly be doing anything different.</p>

<p>Remember, 80% or more of SCEA applicants will NOT be going to Princeton. Princeton doesn’t want you gaming the system, but it would be completely unjustifiable if it were asking good candidates to forgo scholarship opportunities they have a good chance to get in order to hold a lottery ticket to Princeton.</p>

<p>Ok, good, glad to have that cleared up. So aside from being notified earlier, is there any specific benefit to applying early?</p>