<p>Hell if we know. :X</p>
<p>All of the hoopla over Abu Gharib and Gitmo is ridiculous. We are at war; things like this are going to happen. If you take up arms against the United States, you bloody well get what is coming to you. And compared to what happened to prisoners of war during WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the events at Abu Gharib and Gitmo are nothing. </p>
<p>Besides, American and allied soldiers who are captured by the radical Islamists we are fighting all face far worse fates. They're even cutting the heads off of unarmed, noncombatant civilians. Where is the outrage over all of that?</p>
<p>we? it says your location is toronto</p>
<p>Hey, Canada is in Afghanistan, and if Stephen Harper's Conservatives were a majority instead of a minority, we would be in Iraq too. In any case, Canada is an active ally to the US in the war on terror; it is our fight as well. We just busted a 17-member sleeper cell in Toronto the other week.</p>
<p>you make wonderful points...
look man, we here in america don't try to get involved in your pathetic country's politics, so butt out of ours!
"And compared to what happened to prisoners of war during WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the events at Abu Gharib and Gitmo are nothing. "
well sudan is nothing compared to the holocaust, so lets give everyone in sudan a gun so they can do it even better!</p>
<p>So what you're saying is, you're against the US holding itself to higher moral standards than the rest of the world? How unpatriotic of you...</p>
<p>Why should we stoop down to their level? Your tone is conciliatory towards abuse, which is troubling. Do you really believe there is no outrage against despicable acts committed by the extremists? You know the answer to that question.</p>
<p>"Besides, American and allied soldiers who are captured by the radical Islamists we are fighting all face far worse fates. They're even cutting the heads off of unarmed, noncombatant civilians. Where is the outrage over all of that?"</p>
<p>Fides et Ratio, Many of the people in the prison were in the wrong place at the wrong time and have commited no crime. Even if they were guilty, that in to way justifies abuse. Firewalker is right, because some radicals commit crime, that in no way justifies us doing the same. Wow, I did not realize that had the Rush Limbaugh show in Canada.</p>
<p>No mate no. Your reasoning is wrong. See, in a war, there is your side, and then there is the other side. Now if you are going to play nice and follow those travesties known as the Hague Accord and the Geneva Convention, go ahead. Just don't expect to win any wars. If the other side were soldiers, I would not recommend torture. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a bunch of vicious, subhuman intolerant zealots.</p>
<p>Fortunately, sane-minded individuals, among others, disagree with you.</p>
<p>Let's discuss then, shall we?</p>
<p>You equate banning torture with losing wars. Last time I checked, torturing POWs has no positive effect on our ability to wage war. Nor has history proved that this be the case. With the assumption that the detainee has already been captured and restrained, the job of immobilizing and rendering useless the soldier on the battlefield has been done.</p>
<p>Torture is unimaginable and dehumanizing, regardless of which side of the war it is on. If anything, torture hinders our ability to wage war effectively. Torture used in interrogation produces false confessions. If you were being drowned, you'd say whatever it takes for the interrogator to stop. This leads to faulty intelligence. There are numerous studies and plenty of anecdotal evidence that support this. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html</a>
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9958544/%5B/url%5D">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9958544/</a></p>
<p>I'm surprised people actually believe in the effectiveness of torture. It's mind-boggling. Lest believe prohibiting it hampers our war effort.</p>
<p>This thread is so depressing.</p>
<p>personally...i think people that disagree with the stuff people like firewalker say are actually the most depressing thing about this thread. we're supposed to live in a civilised world now.</p>
<p>Good times.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Last time I checked, torturing POWs has no positive effect on our ability to wage war
[/quote]
They are NOT POWS. They are terrorists. Torture might be the only way to get vital info for them. If you love them so much, why don't you bloody well enlist in the Mujaheddin or the Taliban? See how civilized they are first hand.</p>
<p>Nothing worse than a rich white limousine liberal giving sermons from his ivory tower.</p>
<p>nothing worse than a stupid neo-con fascist trying to impose himself on other people, making this point from his ivory tower.</p>
<p>just how many terror threats have we seen since september 11, out of interest? i think its time to realise:</p>
<p>1)there aren't terrorists everywhere.
2)its unlikely there will be another attempt at a major terrorist act this decade. the 'constant threat' is a neat way for the government to claim illiberal emergency powers they would normally have no excuse to use. if you live in the middle of the countryside in conneticut, exactly how scared of terrorism can you be, in all seriousness?
3)to believe hard-line neo-conservative rhetoric makes you sub-human and an embarassment.
4)what exactly does america stand for when it works its way around its own declarations of liberty and freedom by either having the president override them, or just carrying out torture abroad? isn't it hypocrisy of the worst kind?
5)america does not have the right to impose itself - or its beliefs - on any other country. you may think you're doing these people a favour, but most of them will tell you otherwise, and i think they're in a better position to know. this may sound inconceivable, but not everybody thinks in the same way as you. just because you regard your pseudo-democracy to be amazing, it doesn't mean people from completely different cultural backgrounds will think the same.</p>
<p>"I'm surprised people actually believe in the effectiveness of torture."</p>
<p>-While i personally disagree with the use of torture, it is hard to argue that it is innefective. it is actually very effective in achieving its goal.<br>
Again, i agree with liveagoodbrew, show me what country these so called pow's are fighting for. you will not be able to find one as they do not represent nor fight for a country, therefore, according to the geneva convention they cannot hold a prisoner of war status. i do believe, however, that the us should act properly and not resort to the use of torture and lower ourselves to the level of the our enemies. we should demonstrate moral superiority through are actions. This does not change the fact however, that these prisoners are not pow's. i believe personally, however, that we should not use torture as a method of achieving intelligence.</p>
<p>Good job xedx. We should all take your advice, make a big bonfire and sing kumbaya while holding hands with uncle Osama. Only an ignoramus of the highest order would call me a neo con. You must think I am also carrying around my prayer beads and reading the Bible right now, right scumbag? Liberals really need to get their heads out of their asses and stop assuming that everyone who breaks from their litany is a neo con who is being funded by Exxon. Your kind is an embarassment to the country, and to humanity in general.</p>
<p>The London and Spain bombings were totally unrelated to the Taliban, right?</p>
<p>
[quote]
just because you regard your pseudo-democracy to be amazing, it doesn't mean people from completely different cultural backgrounds will think the same.
[/quote]
Not that I need to point out your ignorance, but we happen to live in a FEDERAL REPUBLIC, NOT A DEMOCRACY.</p>
<p>To quote Robert DeNiro.."It rains... you get wet."</p>
<p>xedx, your post has so many stupid comments i dont even know where to start. your post is absolutely hillarious. i love reading idealists rosey outlook on life and foreign affairs. it just shows your ignorance on the realities of the world and life. there is nothing wrong with working for a better world. however, only those who are ignorant would see reality through the narrow optomistic scope of idealism. you truly must be a moron.</p>
<p>I love how liberals throw around terms like "fascist" and "neo-con" in every conversation. For all of their intellectual failings, you have to hand it to them: They are Rembrandt's in the art of baseless and empty rhetoric.</p>
<p>For the people who believe they arent POW's, SCOTUS believes otherwise...And for good reason. Personally, it's a matter of semantics, thats all. That shouldnt be justification for torture, however.</p>
<p>I'm not going to respond to the ad-hominem attacks. Way too much mudslinging now. Trying to be "above it all"...</p>
<p>On the efficacy of torture...among other things.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amnestyusa.org/askamnesty/torture200112.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.amnestyusa.org/askamnesty/torture200112.html</a>
<a href="http://www.dickinson.edu/departments/law/policy/JigsawTorture.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.dickinson.edu/departments/law/policy/JigsawTorture.pdf</a>
<a href="http://www.pitt.edu/%7Ettwiss/irtf/resolutions.torture2.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.pitt.edu/~ttwiss/irtf/resolutions.torture2.html</a>
<a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss14/nagan.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss14/nagan.shtml</a></p>
<p>Right now it's he said, she said...until you provide me with evidence that it is effective, the burden of proof is on you. Unfortunately, any debate on the effectiveness of torture assumes that it's, at the very least, morally justified. But that's a whole different debate.</p>