Forgot you were smarter than the average bear, @dstark - you’ve been keeping it well hidden recently 
I have the honor to be
Your Obedient Servant,
Boo-Boo
“I’m going to spill the beans on a “secret” that most people are completely unaware of.At elite colleges like Georgetown, a shockingly high percentage of the students who identify as black actually immigrated to the US as children from Africa or the Caribbean or are children of those who did very recently….”
I don’t think that’s much of a secret for those who spend much time around colleges. There are very likely quite a few African American college students and graduates who are not direct descendants of American slaves, Barack Obama and Colin Powell being perhaps two of the most prominent. When I was in grad school all but one of the Black grad students in our department were either recent immigrants or foreign students from Africa.
So not all African Americans are descendants of American slaves, but pretty much all descendants of American slaves are African Americans.
“That boost aka “affirmative action” is nowhere near as large as a legacy/developmental or athletic boost according to a relative, a few Profs, and several acquaintances who worked Ivy/elite college admissions.”
I’m not so sure. As I said, I don’t have statistics to show this, but based on decades of reading admissions results threads of selective colleges on CC, my impression is that it’s far more common to see a high stat legacy kid get rejected from his/her legacy school than it is for high stat URMs to get rejected from pretty much anywhere.
And as long as we are dealing with anecdotes, we had an interesting example of this legacy vs. URM question a few years ago right here at our local high school. Two girls, one URM and other with Stanford legacy- both great kids. They had identical straight-A weighted and unweighted GPAs right down to the last decimal place. They were co-valedictorians from a school that normally has only one Val per year. They both had high SATs although the legacy girl’s were moderately higher. Both had good musical ECs. Both were loved by the teachers, so they presumably both got great recs. Neither came from an underprivileged background. Both came from intact families where all four parents had advanced degrees. URM’s dad is a successful doctor.
So in terms of CC-style stats and qualifications, these girls were just about identical except for legacy girl’s modestly higher SATs and of course their respective hooks. This was an almost pure URM vs Legacy match-up. Both girls applied to Stanford.
Stanford had four choices. They could admit the URM, the Legacy, neither, or both. What did Stanford do? They admitted the URM and rejected the Legacy. So for this micro-experiment of n=2, URM status beat out Legacy status.
Now before you feel too sorry for the Legacy girl, I can tell you that she “consoled” herself by going to the Ivy League for college. Both girls now have graduated and are in prestigious graduate/professional school programs. But overall, their undergrad admissions cycle was very interesting to observe.
FYI - just heard NPR report on this while driving - Apparently Georgetown Jesuits kept meticulous records and know exactly who those (270- something) slaves were+ their marriage, children’s birth, and death records and have now reached out to all descendants …
IMO perhaps besides a boost in admissions they should offer them a full scholarship…
One issue with discussions about legacy on CC is that it often ignores how elite colleges actually provide the legacy boost as underscored by my HS GC back in the mid-'90s when he emphasized how a legacy tip is only in play if one’s parents or sometimes grandparents not only attended a given school, but also had an established history of donating substantial amounts…and we’re not talking $50-a few hundred per year…and/or substantial noteworthy accomplishments(noted academic, inventor, politician, corporate/businessperson, Olympic medalist, etc. .
The examples of people I knew of who were accepted to elite/Ivy colleges on a legacy basis…such as an older college roommate were ones whose parents/grandparents made sustained donations of several tens/hundreds of thousands annually or in his grandparent’s case…several million over the decades AND being a noted alumna respected by her alma mater.
In short, most upper-middle class parents here on CC or folks like my uncle who donate nothing/nominal sums per year to their elite/Ivy alma maters and lived relatively hum-drum upper-middle class lives wouldn’t have garnered enough of a donation/notable achievement to get the “legacy tip” as actually practiced in many elite/Ivy colleges. Especially considering those elite/Ivy colleges have a critical mass of wealthy alums who won’t hesitate to donate large sums at the drop of the hat AND/OR are have highly noteworthy accomplishments in their own rights.
In their case, their kids’ applications wouldn’t be viewed much differently than an unhooked applicant from the same demographic.
@runswimyoga CNN had an interview today with a women from New Orleans who said her ancestor was one of the slaves Georgetown sold. She is now an anchor with a TV station there.
@runswimyoga, that’s great.
@al2simon, your post reminded me of John Ogbu. Have you ever read anything written by John Ogbu?
We hear and read, “I am doing well. I am a minority and I am doing well. Why aren’t members of other minoriites doing as well? They aren’t working hard enough”.
I think John Ogbu explained it very well.
You can disagree. I can’t promise you 100 percent, but if you disagree, I won’t think less of your intelligence. 
I am not into servants. One…they cost money. Two, I like my privacy. Three, what would I do with a cartoon bear? 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ogbu
Ogbu argues [1] that cultural differences alone cannot account for differences in minority education, since some minority communities do quite well and others do not. In addition, he observes that in some cases groups of people of the same race but located in different countries manifested different ability and/or achievement levels according to some measures.
Ogbu points out that there are two kinds of differences between cultures. There are primary differences, which existed before cultures came into contact with each other. Then, there are secondary differences, which come into existence when two cultures interact with each other. He says that many of these secondary differences are created by subordinate groups in opposition to the cultural references of the dominant group.
In the U.S. context, Ogbu concluded that among U.S. Americans there are “voluntary minorities” (groups of immigrants who chose to come to the United States, and their descendants) versus “involuntary” or “caste-like” minorities (descendants of groups of persons who found themselves in the United States, or under United States jurisdiction, against their will). Voluntary minorities (e.g. Korean-Americans) tend to form nonoppositional secondary differences with the dominant culture. On the other hand, involuntary minorities (e.g. Native Americans) tend to form oppositional secondary differences with the dominant culture. However, both voluntary nonoppositional cultural subjects and involuntary oppositional cultural subjects are required to adhere to dominant (white) American cultural frames of reference if they want to acquire upward social mobility.
“In short, most upper-middle class parents here on CC or folks like my uncle who donate nothing/nominal sums per year to their elite/Ivy alma maters and lived relatively hum-drum upper-middle class lives wouldn’t have garnered enough of a donation/notable achievement to get the “legacy tip” as actually practiced in many elite/Ivy colleges”
Or you could just say in plain, clear English “Legacy doesn’t count all that much unless there is significant money associated with it.” That was pretty easy to summarize.
Over the years, I have read and heard about this a lot, such as;
Parents getting calls from their alma mater after the child applies, asking if they can maintain ties to the school by participating to events (from 2000 miles away) or make contributions.
Insider’s notes on how to marking applications as confirmed or possible donation rather than just legacy.
I am not sure what is the significant money here. I don’t think they are talking about buildings. Maybe being a legacy is a help that they are given chance to get admission boosts with smaller donations or just physical volunteering.
But what good is a legacy for the alma mater if he has severed all ties from the school as soon as he graduated?
@dstark - Not sure why you wrote your post. Is this a sore subject on CC? If so, it’s news to me and I will stay away from this topic in the future.
I think you think that I am taking orders from the trilateral commission and have a hidden agenda buried in my post.
I really do not other than to suggest that the elite colleges perhaps aren’t doing as much as people might think when it comes to helping those who are descendants of U.S. slaves. I think that perhaps they could do better. That’s all I was trying to suggest.
I suspect you might agree with this, but if you don’t then that’s cool too.
Never heard of John Ogbu. His theories about voluntary vs. involuntary minorities sound like they could be true, but what do I know since it’s far removed from my field. (Of course, the wikipedia page you linked to and associated references mention that his theories have “problems”, but I guess in this case since his findings line up with your ideological predilections that’s ok 
)
(Perhaps you think my secret agenda is to argue that because recent African immigrants do so well then there is no need for affirmative action? I assure you that is not what I believe. I have served on commissions whose goals were to figure out how to remove roadblocks that confront low-income, women, and URM students. The issues are complicated and talk is cheap. Interventions that you put in place to help one group of students end up helping another group instead, and I do not believe in hiding from those truths. Finding solutions that work is hard, and the work we did directly impacted the lives of a couple thousand students. )
“Legacy” may sometimes overlap with “development case” , but the two are not synonymous.
@al2simon, you are reading too much into my posts. I don’t think you have a secret agenda.
You wrote this…
Your mentioned where black students were coming from and a high percentage who identify…and you mentioned Obama…which triggered John Ogbu in my mind. Obama and Colin Powell are not thought to have the heritage of being conquered. According to John Ogbu, that is a big help in assimilating and thriving in the United States.
So I asked you if you read anything from John Ogbu. I posted something about John Ogbu’s writings which does relate to the percentage of students who are black and where they come from.
It relates to the makeup of Georgetown’s student body and how many students who are descendents of slaves are really going to be able to take advantage of Georgetown’s offer. I don’t know the answer.
I don’t agree with everything John Ogbu wrote although I do agree with what I highlighted.
That is my long answer.
My short answer was I was just curious if you read Ogbu. I didn’t ask you because I wanted to argue. I don’t always post to argue. Thousands of my posts are just .
,
I appreciate your post 28. I like what you wrote.
First, you accuse me of underestimating your intelligence.
Now, you accuse me of overestimating your intelligence.
Can never win with you, @dstark . You aren’t related to my wife, are you?
Thanks for the pointer to John Ogbu. I’d heard the theories before but didn’t know the name.
While listening to this on NPR, I was struck there is now a first case of reparations being offered up… albeit very limited… are there any more cases I am missing? This makes me happy 
I hope this is not the last reparation. I read Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Between the World and Me - his argument is powerful.
As an airline pilot, I never have had any sociology classes- so @dstark Thank you for sharing John Ogbu’s theory. I am going to read more! I also really liked reading @alh 's post in a prior thread sharing links to “otherness” theory - it put into words what I observed and led me to another theory that I think applies to URM in many colleges … the political science /mass communication theory Spiral of Silence. I love when I learn things on CC - So thanks for sharing - feel free to share more if you think they are appropriate/relatable to URM today
A couple of things come to mind right away.
- A legacy applicant is more likely to be full pay than a non-legacy. Need-blind colleges still need to worry about finances, and legacies side-step the issue quite nicely.
- A legacy brings institutional knowledge about the college's culture and traditions on Day 1.
Georgetown’s treatment of slaves’ descandants as legacy doesn’t fit either criteria. They are aware it will cost them in terms of providing aid, and have planned for it.
“While I’m not specifically familiar with Georgetown admissions policies, and hard numbers are difficult to come by, my impression among private colleges in general is that a URM admissions boost alone is often greater than a legacy admissions boost alone.”
“That boost aka “affirmative action” is nowhere near as large as a legacy/developmental or athletic boost according to a relative, a few Profs, and several acquaintances who worked Ivy/elite college admissions.”
Rather than citing to anecdotes, we can instead cite to the academic studies how the preferences compare. For example, Espenshade of Princeton in his 2004 study.
His conclusion was that the biggest boost in elite college admissions is being African American – equivalent to an extra 230 SAT points on a 1600 scale. Second best hook is recruited athlete – 200 points. Third best is Hispanic – 185 points. Fourth best is alumni child – 160 points.
TBD how Gtown might calibrate the boost from this group of applicants, who you’d guess would likely be AA/legacy double dippers.
FYI, developmental is a separate category. Big checks are still big checks even if they come from non-alumni.
It’s good that Georgetown is doing something to atone for its sin. But it seems like way too little and way too late.
Yeah, the descendents should get admissions preference at Georgetown, but big whoop… That’s no skin off Georgetown’s back, because how many of the descendents have had the upbringing that grooms them to be even semi-competitive candidates for admission? Seems to me a rich school like that should ALSO offer the descendents an outreach program on the K-12 level.
Justice would be served, not by the descendents getting an admissions bump at Georgetown, but by the descendents receiving the blessing of a rigorous K-12 education that will unlock the door to ANY selective college.
I wondering that, if an applicant didn’t have enough qualification to get into Georgetown with African American hook, would it be really helpful to admit him with even more boost? Would he really be able to do the academic work?
@runswimyoga, thanks. I like your posts and I like the way you respect others. Much better than I do.
@al2simon, what can I say? I think this is a positive. I have very high expectations of you. Just like your wife.
I appreciate the two of you liking the John Ogbu reference.
That’s what I was getting at in post #35
Pizzagirl said in post 6: ‘The goal is not to “change composition of the student body”’. It will be interesting to see, 5 or 10 years in the future, if the representation of African-Americans is higher or about the same.
Wonder if any other universities are now asking themselves, ‘Now will renaming that building not be enough?’