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<p>As a dad, I always told my son to take a job if it turned up. School can always wait.</p>
<p>I went to work full-time after one year of school - the job market for programmers was really, really hot for a period of time in the 1970s.</p>
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<p>I laughed.</p>
<p>Yeah, CMU is a great school. It’s not the only good school out there. If you control for the quality of students, Michigan probably places it’s students just as well. The average starting salary is noticeably lower (about 75K rather than 85K) but that can vary widely (people from here do get jobs at Google, Facebook, and all sorts of trading firms), and I am very confident a top student would do just as well at Michigan as they would at CMU.</p>
<p>And Michigan is not an anomaly either. I bet there’s a dozen schools out there which can say the same.</p>
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<p>At many schools, engineering and CS majors are encouraged to take a semester off to do a co-op job to get some industry work experience. Consider your son’s work experience to be like an extended co-op job – most colleges tend to have relatively easy readmission terms for those who stopped attending while in good academic and financial standing with the school. In the next industry downturn, it is likely that he can return to school and finish the degree.</p>
<p>DrGoogle, has he visited Pittsburgh? It’s really nice! </p>
<p>CMU was perfect for my kid who sadly would probably not have taken advantage of the strength of a Harvard or Yale (or even a state college with a good comp sci program). He loved having a huge group of geeky peers. But there are many other ways to get from point A to point B, and I imagine that someone who wants to end up in management might do better with a more well-rounded education. Neither of my brothers do much programming any more. My older brother’s business is actually mostly about teaching programmers to listen to their customers better.</p>
<p>^Apparently, Pittsburgh is not for everybody. D. did not like Pittsburgh at all and after visit withdrew from highly ranked Grad. School there. I do not know exactly what turned her off.
I do not know much about CS, but I am programmer (I was told that it is not the same as CS). For programming job, it is absolutely does not matter which school you go. You will have to learn on your own at every single job. I had 9 of them. Work is very very entertaining, not only from prospective of writing software but also from prospective of human interaction. I have to deal a lot with external customers all over the world, the biggest automotive companies in many markets. At the same time our internal users are also spread all over, many in Europe. It is simply the most facsinating job. But again, I have no idea about CS, so do not take it from me if you are after CS job. I am just wiriting programs, have done it for over 30 years in different languages on different platforms in many very different industries. We work very independently,there is nobody who will tell what you do and how, you are on your own. User submits the project, it is assigned to you, and here you fly whatever direction is the best for everybody…but customer comes first, when they say “jump” the only reply that is allowed is “how high?”, word “impossible” is as dirty as could be, not permitted in any communication, “impossible” has to be made “possible” by you, period…</p>
<p>^^^
And I was afraid this thread might turn boring. ;)</p>
<p>Apparently I’m far from the typical burgeoning CS major. I actually want to get a well-rounded education (particularly through taking a lot of language classes) while maintaining a focus on CS. I also don’t care if I go to an absolutely top-ranked CS school; I’m just as happy with the idea of going to a humanities-focused school as long as its CS program is at least good. Hell, I might even apply to Swarthmore. Then again, my career intentions are more than just working a programming gig…</p>
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<p>Thanks for the data from another highly selective expensive private university. I’d be much more interested in how CS majors from typical public universities or less selective privates are doing. How do CS majors from Penn State or Rutgers fare compared to graduates of CMU, Penn and Princeton?</p>
<p><a href=“By%20the%20way,%20do%20%22Research%20Assistants%22%20at%20universities%20really%20make%20$45,000%20or%20more%20these%20days?%20That%20seems%20outrageous.”>quote</a>
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Why is that surprising? Can you provide more context? Grad student research assistants get tuition benefits in addition to their stipends. Full-time research assistants get a full-time salary.</p>
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When one does the research on the average starting salaries, one needs to consider geography. Whereas I think there are a lot of CMU (or MIT or Princeton, etc.) students who moved there from significantly outside of the area to attend and therefore might be more willing to take a job significantly outside of the area, the same isn’t always true for state schools and some schools whose names aren’t quite as well known.</p>
<p>This affects the income. If a greater percentage of students are willing to accept jobs outside of the area, for example a CMU grad accepting a job in the Silicon Valley or Portland or Seattle, the salary will generally be higher than the student who goes to midwest local state U and plans to stick within the general area and turn down those other job offers. OTOH compare housing costs in the Silicon Valley to typical midwest costs and then try to decide who’s better off financially despite the difference in salaries.</p>
<p>A number of companies offer different salary levels for the exact same positions based on geography due to the local marketplace (regardless of the school attended) with the Silicon Valley being among the more expensive and therefore higher salary level locations.</p>
<p>I think the scenario above is a significant factor in the numbers seen in the starting salaries and should be considered before assuming too much cause/effect simply due to the school or its rep.</p>
<p>(Again - I’m not saying anything negative about CMU which is an excellent school for CS - just trying to put things in perspective)</p>
<p>University of Iowa reported an average salary of $57,000 for CS grads in spring 2011. Most placements are in Iowa or Illinois.</p>
<p>Iowa State reports an average salary of $63,000. Most placements are in Iowa, Minneaota, and Illinois. Software Engineers are right at $70,000.</p>
<p>Haystack, can you provide references for your data? I tried Google but I only found statistics on job offers for the engineering majors at the University of Iowa.</p>
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No, D2 has not been even to the state of Philadelphia. She received a free ticket and hotel to visit University of Pittsburg, she was first excited to go but later on decided not to go, I’m not sure the reason. I only remember vaguely that my husband jokingly said something to the effect that why should one go to college in the “Pitts”. Not very funny to me but it somehow stuck to her brain and now it’s a no go.</p>
<p>U Iowa
<a href=“http://www.careers.uiowa.edu/outcomes/clas_SP2011_results.pdf[/url]”>http://www.careers.uiowa.edu/outcomes/clas_SP2011_results.pdf</a></p>
<p>Iowa State…could not find it online. Data is from a handout we received on a campus visit. I’m guessing that it’s is fairly accurate as Iowa State’s CS program is bigger and better than U Iowa. ISU’s software engineering program is run jointly by CS and computer engineering.</p>
<p>Salaries are geography dependent and technology dependent. I came up through the ranks as a database developer/data modeler/DBA. Actually, program managers would make snide and/or joking comments about how much the DBA was paid. Now, I was never a 100% DBA. I had to be involved in the design also because it is much better when you had control of the design instead of inheriting from the previous person.</p>
<p>I got into PowerBuilder when it was hot…then moved to the back-end database arena first with SQL Server then Oracle. When data warehousing/mining got hot, I made that my specialty. Now I have switched to cloud computing with Hadoop and Cloudbase.</p>
<p>I went to a midwest school (Michigan State). I have lived on the east coast for over 20 years but I have always divided my experience into two themes: private sector (14 years) and top-secret defense contracting (8 years).</p>
<p>Neither of my majors (undergrad or grad) were in CS. I have a B.S. in Computational Mathematics (Math/CS hybrid degree) and a M.S. in Engineering (really an engineering management degree but U-Wisconsin calls it a MSE). Grad school came at age 31 and I basically did it to “check the box” and qualify for more senior-level positions. Research was never an intention.</p>
<p>I am very familiar with CMU since CMU sets the industry standards for software engineering processes.</p>
<p>Iowa State is also known for its online M.Eng programs. Quite a few companies send their employees through ISU.</p>
<p>U-Iowa has a nice Math/CS hybrid undergrad degree program. As many of you can tell, I like studying CS via Math programs. :-)</p>
<p>GladGradDad, you have a good point that mobility might facilitate a higher income, and that graduates of local state universities might be less inclined to move across the country than their peers at Stanford and CMU. However, would they be competitive for the same high-paying Silicon Valley jobs if they wanted to have them? I know several companies in the Philadelphia area who hire exclusively from Princeton and Penn. I suspect that Silicon Valley is quite prestige-oriented as well. If this is true, income might be an accurate reflection of an employee’s desirability on the job market after all. </p>
<p>Your other point concerned purchasing power in different parts of the country. I would argue that that’s not the best perspective for a young adult. What does a 22-year-old with above average income spend money on? I don’t get a discount on my student loans if I live in the country side, nor does a new computer cost more in Silicon Valley. Vacations are not priced on a sliding scale either. I understand that it can be super expensive to raise a family in Silicon Valley, but single young adults seem to be doing quite well.</p>
<p>Haystack, I would not trust that University of Iowa survey. Either most of the 1220 people responding to the survey did not report their income, or else the statistics were assembled by someone who was arithmetically challenged. </p>
<p>Several majors (including chemistry, anthropology and health sciences) appeared to have only a single student respond: the lowest, highest, average and median incomes reported are all equal. Many other programs - including computer science, math, journalism, actuarial science, athletic training, art and history - appear to have exactly two responses: there the average and median income are equal and literally the average of the highest or lowest income. </p>
<p>Either way, it’s useless information as far as expected salary is concerned.</p>
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<p>Some public universities with relatively detailed career surveys:</p>
<p><a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Major.stm[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Major.stm</a>
<a href=“https://www.careers.calpoly.edu/search.php?yr=2010%20-%202011[/url]”>https://www.careers.calpoly.edu/search.php?yr=2010%20-%202011</a>
[Post-Graduation</a> Survey and Report | Career Services | Virginia Tech](<a href=“http://www.career.vt.edu/PostGraduationSurveyReport/PostGrad.html]Post-Graduation”>http://www.career.vt.edu/PostGraduationSurveyReport/PostGrad.html)</p>
<p>Some others, many of which are much less detailed:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html</a></p>
<p>Unfortunately, most universities do not have very detailed career survey information.</p>
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If graduating from one of the upper tier well-known schools, many of which are state Universities scattered across a number of states, then yes. If you think about it CMU (or any particular school) doesn’t graduate nearly enough students to fill all of the jobs even if they wanted to use grads of that school exclusively. Grads of schools like UCB, UCLA, (many of the other UCs), USC, UIUC, MIT, Stanford, etc., are also offered jobs at most of those Silicon Valley firms you can think of. </p>
<p>These firms tend to recruit only on certain campuses but hire from many more.</p>
<p>Now, if you’re referring to grads of a relatively unknown school or one that’s very non-selective, it might be somewhat more difficult to get hired.</p>
<p>Don’t forget that many of these CS students have relevant internship experience along with the degree and this experience can be a big factor as well.</p>
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Whether it’s accepted well by the young person or not, it’s a reality and it enters the equation of not just the offer in the first place but also the attractiveness of the offer. Most CS grads are pretty good at math and can compare the cost of the $800/mo apartment to the $1800/mo similar one in a different location, for example, even if they’re not at the point of thinking about buying a house yet. I agree with you about the costs of other items being relatively comparable.</p>
<p>A polar example is comparing offers from the firm in NYC with the firm in Omaha or Birmingham - one had better include living costs in their comparisons of the attractiveness of the offers. Ditto other expensive to live areas like the bay area, DC, and some others.</p>
<p>“No, D2 has not been even to the state of Philadelphia. She received a free ticket and hotel to visit University of Pittsburg, she was first excited to go but later on decided not to go, I’m not sure the reason. I only remember vaguely that my husband jokingly said something to the effect that why should one go to college in the “Pitts”. Not very funny to me but it somehow stuck to her brain and now it’s a no go.”</p>
<p>Seriously, I don’t mean to be snarky or disrespectful, but if a statement like that isn’t the perfect argument for WHY you’d want your kid to get a good liberal arts education to go with his/her CS degree, I don’t know what is.</p>