Getting admitted to a music conservatory

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi there,</p>

<p>I posted this in a different forum, but was recommended to post in this one. I'm the father of a girl applying for music conservatories.</p>

<p>She is younger than most other college applicants, but already has a Bachelor's of Science degree. I will not say her age for confidentiality purposes (this is the web, after all). She has played violin and piano from age five and is auditioning for music conservatories in violin for a BM degree. We have just finished all conservatory applications and recording her prescreening CDs (for the schools that want one) with a professional engineer.</p>

<p>My daughter is incredibly nervous about getting admitted to a conservatory. All her teachers were famous master teachers who thought she had great talent, potential, and learned fast. Her current teacher thinks she is ready to audition for conservatories, and will get in. Even teachers with a reputation for being "harshly" honest thought so as well. (We asked for truthful answers, and received some suggestions for improvement as well.)</p>

<p>Despite the compliments from her past teachers, my daughter is worrying so much about not getting in to any conservatories at all because my wife's rule was that my daughter must get into a highly regarded conservatory (Indiana U, Juilliard, Eastman, Mannes, Manhattan, Oberlin, etc.); if she did not, she must quit violin. She had always dreamed of a violin career, but studied science instead in hopes of becoming a doctor (her second most-wanted career goal; my wife forbid her from applying to music conservatories until now).</p>

<p>Her teacher thinks her prescreening tape is good enough, with intonation mistakes here and there but no major mistakes. Still, my daughter is completely stressed out over whether she will get in. She has attended Meadowmount's music camp (not sure of the full name) and is third chair in a highly-regarded youth orchestra (not local). Her teacher thinks it is a "minus" that she is younger than most college applicants, but a "plus" that she already has a BS degree (to help make her stand out from other applicants).</p>

<p>What are her chances of getting in to a good conservatory? We have not applied to any of the "easier" conservatories, and I know it is hard to say without actually hearing her play. Also, what are some things I can do to make my daughter stop stressing out so much?</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

2

<p>I will ask you first, does your daughter has a teacher(s) she wants to work with. If so has she taken any sample lessons with those teachers? The schools you have listed are hard admits, but she should find a good teacher match regardless of what school she attends. It can be very hard to change studios even if the teacher isn’t working out for her. As far as stressing out, she really needs to get more philosophical about this whole thing, not just school, but being a musician requires a certain toughness. Perhaps if you tell her that this toughness is necessary for her future career and she should start practicing now to take things in stride it might help.</p>

3

<p>If she’s /really/ worried, she should wait. It’s that simple. She has a degree, and more time to practice and (gasp!) grow up a little might depressurize the process a little.
But actually her list-- and it is hers, not yours collectively, no matter how involved you are in the process, because she and only she will enroll somewhere-- does include a couple of schools with less than brutal entrance competition. If you mean it when you say she’s had famous master teachers, and they really have thought well of her, and she was successful at Meadowmount, then at least one of the schools on that list is likely to work out; the acceptance rates for violin at Mannes, Indiana, and Oberlin are not horribly unfavorable. The minimum standard is quite high-- none of those schools is less than an excellent and internationally recognized choice, and none is easy to get in to-- but the chances of getting in if you’re qualified are not bad. If you’re concerned about taking comfort from random internet discussion, I’m a graduate student at a major music school and a teacher at the attached preparatory program.</p>

<p>But look. You’ve practically answered your own question. Forgive my presumptuousness in saying all this, but you seem genuinely concerned for your child’s well-being, so I’m going to tell you what I believe will help. The pressure can be meaningfully reduced only by you and your wife. Your daughter is clearly an extremely accomplished young woman, whose dearest dream is riding on one round of competitive auditions to such an extent that her whole future will have to be rewritten if something goes wrong. That is a recipe for disaster, and waste. I understand the impulse to protect her future by not sending this talented person in a direction that won’t be fruitful, i.e. music school if she’s not really good enough or the school won’t get her far enough. But the fact is that lots of great teaching goes on at second-tier schools and lots of terrible teaching goes on at terrific schools; prestige guarantees nothing but, well, prestige. You’ve already established that trustworthy authorities think your daughter can make a go of a music career. That should be enough to go on.</p>

<p>If you want your daughter to stop feeling stressed out, your wife’s rule has to go. It runs a real risk of being a self-fulfilling prophecy. </p>

<p>I’m not telling you to let your daughter take an unwise course. I admire your care for her future and present happiness.</p>

4

<p>I agree with srw,but with certain caveats <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/390796-does-phenomenal-applied-teacher-really-trump-everything.html?highlight=teacher[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/390796-does-phenomenal-applied-teacher-really-trump-everything.html?highlight=teacher&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Once again fiddlefrog speaks wisdom. Time dictates I can’t pen my full thoughts now, but in the interim thumb through the acceptances subhead in the thread here <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/901390-2010-collective-experience.html?highlight=2010[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/901390-2010-collective-experience.html?highlight=2010&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There are also some philosophical positions within these:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/379897-number-auditions-applications-etc.html?highlight=number[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/379897-number-auditions-applications-etc.html?highlight=number&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/309522-auditions-there-magic-number.html?highlight=number[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/309522-auditions-there-magic-number.html?highlight=number&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/249741-number-schools.html?highlight=number[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/249741-number-schools.html?highlight=number&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Some self doubt regards one’s one ability is normal, and can be expected. Major stressing is another issue, but the level of competition requires a good dose of having nerves of steel, and an underlying faith in one’s ability and potential, backed up by experiences, training and objective professional assessment. Age and maturity may indeed be a factor.</p>

5

<p>It really is worrisome that your wife has told your daughter she will have to give up music if she does not get into a prestigious conservatory. Is music simply a road to prestige? I would ask your wife to try to understand the importance of music to your daughter, and to many other students like her, no matter what path she takes in life. Does your daughter love playing the violin, regardless of what school it takes her to?</p>

<p>Your daughter is younger than most college applicants, and yet already has a BS. Clearly this is an unusual situation, with a student possessing unusual academic talent, but also one that may have involved incredible stress and pressure. Doing a college program at such a young age, regardless of intelligence or drive, can be very difficult.</p>

<p>I would ask more about the background to the current situation. Did your daughter live at home while doing the BS? Has she been able to “have a life,” meaning friends and fun and relaxation, as well as meaningful work?</p>

<p>Does your wife agree with the BM goal, or is she more on board with an MD degree?</p>

<p>There are a lot of factors behind this situation, that might even require some counseling for your daughter ( and perhaps also your wife). She may have had stresses that were not necessarily age-appropriate, and may need to go backward and then catch up.</p>

6

<p>Your daughter sounds like a high-achieving, multi-talented kid. How lucky you are to have such a bright flame to nurture and support! You are wise to think about her stress level and emotional response to the high pressure audition environment, particularly at a young age. If you were carrying a lit candle across a windy field, you would create a shield to protect the flame from going out rather than trying to run as fast as you could to get to the other side or threatening the candle with dire consequences if the wind proves to be too strong. Please be sure that your child knows that her parents offer a circle of unconditional protection and safety, no matter what.</p>

7

<p>I concur with what everyone has said before this post. Just adding one more comment that directly addresses your question:</p>

<p><<her teacher=“” thinks=“” it=“” is=“” a=“” “minus”=“” that=“” she=“” younger=“” than=“” most=“” college=“” applicants,=“” but=“” “plus”=“” already=“” has=“” bs=“” degree=“” (to=“” help=“” make=“” her=“” stand=“” out=“” from=“” other=“” applicants).=“”>></her></p>

<p>Your daughter’s age (unless she is very young, under age 16, for example) should not be a factor. Her BS degree should also not be a factor. She will be evaluated on her audition alone. The only possible other factor that might influence the decision would be if she has a pre-existing relationship with a teacher who really wants her in his/her studio. You don’t mention her age or whether she studied for her BS degree while living at home, but if she is very young you might consider having her take some time off before going to conservatory where life can be very hectic and pressure-filled. There are also social factors related to the pressure of conservatory that will be easier for a more mature student to handle.</p>

8

<p>Some really good points in this that I want to add to that hopefully will help:</p>

<p>-Admissions to conservatories are basically crap shoots, in that a lot of factors influence whether someone gets in or not. For example, it could be the year someone is auditioning on a particular instrument the program has very few slots open if any, so no matter how good they play they may not get in, even if playing at a level good enough to be admitted. And they might have for example 60 people auditioning for one slot, and if they had open slots all 60 might have gotten in, but they had to choose only 1…</p>

<p>Not to mention that admission to a conservatory performance program rests basically on the audition, it isn’t like admittance to academic programs where a wide variety of factors, including EC’s, test scores, grades, etc are factored into the mix. With a conservatory, it is all that one 10 minute (or less) audition, that is what it boils down to. Someone can be a fantastic musician, and have a bad audition, get nervous, freeze up, whatever. Things like competition wins, what summer program they went to, which youth orchestra programs basically don 't matter in conservatory admissions, though they do indicate a relative level of achievement. </p>

<p>The point being that with everything resting on that one audition and faced with the reality of the quirkiness of music school admissions if someone doesn’t get in it may only mean that given the openings they had at the time they auditioned, the person wasn’t in the top cut…but also keep in mind that more then a few of those who got in won’t make it in music, while someone who didn’t make the grade in that audition, went someplace else, does make it. Where you went to conservatory doesn’t get you gigs or jobs as a performer directly, orchestras don’t look and say “X went to Curtis, hire them”, it is done by audition and at that point it is the person’s talent and to a certain extent personality that gets them hired, and as a soloist all that matters is someone can go out and thrill an audience <em>shrug</em></p>

<p>-If you daughter is younger then other kids going to conservatory, it probably won’t hurt her when she auditions from what I have been told by admissions people among others. If she has a college degree already, then that shouldn’t be a barrier (Curtis doesn’t even require a high school degree, kids as young as 10 have gone there and that is not a prep program, Curtis doesn’t have one, that is the main conservatory) as far as I know.</p>

<p>-On the other hand, if your daughter is still so young, what is the pressure to make it into conservatory right this moment? Why is this years audition do or die, make or break? Is the thought that she needs to get through conservatory as young as possible to be able to make it as a violinist? If so, that isn’t the reality.</p>

<p>If she has her heart set on getting into a high level program, and doesn’t get into the one she wants to this year, what would be wrong about taking another year to get to the level needed and re-audition? It might actually help her with an additional year to mature some more, physically and emotionally (no matter how bright a kid is, emotional development doesn’t necessarily match intellectual one).Older kids have been known to take a gap year to focus on their audition repertoire, so that should be an option.</p>

<p>She seems like a multi talented person, someone that no matter what she does will do fine, and if her heart is really in music, and considering she is still young, why not let her give it a shot, either this year or next year if she doesn’t get into what she wants to this year, and let it play out as it happens?</p>

<p>I also highly recommend reading the various links to threads that have been posted, and read the many posts on here about what a high level conservatory does or doesn’t do, it is important to get through the misconceptions out there (like for example, going to Juilliard or Curtis et al in of itself is the road to success, or that it gets you hired down the road for performance jobs, it doesn’t)</p>

9

<p>@srw: Thank you for your reply! I will tell that to my daughter.</p>

<p>@fiddlefrog: I really appreciate your kind words and detailed posting! I do agree my wife’s rule is giving stress to my daughter. Perhaps a compromise could be made. In any case, thank you again!</p>

<p>@violadad: Thanks for all the links! I will check them out. I don’t think my daughter’s “majorly” stressing (compared to some other nervous applicants we know), but is relatively nervous for a generally calm and composed person.</p>

<p>@compmom: Yes, my daughter genuinely loves the violin. I believe my wife wants her to enter a prestigious conservatory to make a living later. My daughter has and is living at home with her family. She has had a “life” and fun with friends her own age, especially in orchestra and other activities. My wife is aiming more for an MD but is okay with a BM for the time being. If my daughter makes good progress, perhaps my wife will be more inclined towards the music goal. Thanks for your concern.</p>

<p>@stradmom: This is particularly touching from another parent. Thank you for your thoughts! I will certainly attempt to nurture my daughter.</p>

<p>@glassharmonica: As a matter of fact, my daughter is “very young”. I do agree that the audition will be the main factor in deciding admissions.</p>

<p>She has always lived at home even when studying for a degree. I believe my daughter has enough maturity and even “life experience” to handle more college life, as she has in the past four years during her BS degree curriculum. She has had many social interactions with fellow college students far older than her, who never even realized the age difference until they were told. </p>

<p>Still, thank you very much for your opinions!</p>

10

<p>Greetings:</p>

<p>This is a little off-subject, but I’m having a hard time understanding the rule that your daughter must quit playing the violin if she is not accepted into a top conservatory. I cannot imagine forcing any child to quit doing something she loves simply because s/he has not risen to someone else’s expectations. </p>

<p>If playing the violin is something that gives her great pleasure and self-esteem, why should she quit? I’d pose this question whether your daughter was 6 or 16. The fact that she already has a college degree suggests to me that she has plenty of brains, maturity and life experience to decide where music fits into her life. </p>

<p>There are so many parents who simply want their children to put the TV remote down and develop a skill - any skill - that they will enjoy for a lifetime. You have a daughter with great passion and talent for the violin, and there is talk of forcing her to give this up? Please, please reconsider this course of action. Careers take various unexpected paths, but the values you instill in your child will last a lifetime. Do you really want her to look back on her youth and remember how much she loved the violin and how much she hated you for taking it away from her simply because, in your wife’s eyes, she wasn’t good enough?</p>

11

<p>“I believe my wife wants her to enter a prestigious conservatory to make a living later.”</p>

<p>There is a fallacy in your wife’s thinking. There are lots of people who graduate from major conservatories who do not find careers in music and there are lots of people who do not graduate from major conservatories who do find careers. Graduating from a prestigious conservatory in no way guarantees that she will end up with a musical career. Musical careers are continually developed based on audition results, a lot of hard work, and a great quantity of luck - being in the right place at the right time. In some quarters of the musical world, it is also who you know. If your daughter is going to pursue classical violin her career will be based almost completely on auditions. And no matter how good you are, there is always an element of luck to these. How well are you playing TODAY, who else is auditioning, what mood is the jury in, what exactly is the committee looking for, etc. Your wife needs to understand that there are no guarantees. However, that doesn’t mean that your daughter should not pursue music as a career. </p>

<p>My son got his BM from one of the schools on your list and an MM from another. He is 27 and struggles to make ends meet as a freelancer. However, he is pretty much happy and cannot imagine any other career. He is willing to live frugally for the opportunity to work with fabulous musicians. He is proud of the fact that music is his “day job”. But he works very hard and sometimes worries about paying the rent. And right now, he wouldn’t have it any other way. </p>

<p>If your daughter pursues music, your wife will need to understand that it is likely not going to be nearly as good economically as medicine, but that your daughter may be much happier.</p>

12

<p>"My wife is aiming more for an MD but is okay with a BM for the time being. If my daughter makes good progress, perhaps my wife will be more inclined towards the music goal. "</p>

<p>The two sentences above are about what you wife wants, not your daughter. </p>

<p>I think this is part of the problem with your daughter’s young age. Most students who are making decisions like this are 18, or almost 18, and most of us parents try to stay out of it as much as we can, since our kids are generally (though not all!) mature enough to figure things out (with the exception of financial limitations, which parents need to articulate). Your daughter may be mature in many ways, but clearly she is not setting her own path: her mother is.</p>

<p>I would also warn you, gently as possible, that sometimes a lot can change for kids who are so accomplished, so young. When your daughter starts asserting herself about what she wants, there will be an adjustment to make. Some of us have experienced kids who were clearly headed in a certain direction, and talented, and treated like peers by much older artists, who abruptly changed course during or after high school. Sometimes this is temporary, and an effort to have autonomy while pursuing music or whatever, and sometimes the change is more permanent.</p>

<p>A majority of students change majors during college, in fact. If a parent is deciding on medicine as a career for a child, when the child is, say, under 16, that parent needs to understand this certainty may be premature, and may even limit healthy exploration.</p>

<p>With music it is a little different: the student must practice for years in order to get to the best training and opportunities, and that practice needs to start young, obviously. Even so, study of music (or dance, theater, art, writing, science…) needs to be seen by parents as beneficial in many ways regardless of what happens in the end: the discipline, enjoyment, camaraderie, hard work, lifelong skill and knowledge, appreciation for music and musicians, and so on are valuable no matter what.</p>

<p>Parents need to help the talented child build a foundation, but when the time comes to move on to conservatory or college, the child really needs to be the one deciding on that path, because it is his or her commitment to honor and work for, not the parent’s.</p>

<p>So your daughter is in a position where she may be too young to make this kind of independent commitment, whether music or medicine, because her path has been so accelerated, and I would think the situation is a little fraught with peril somehow. Just my opinion and, in some ways, experience.</p>

<p>It is helpful to read about young musicians who are not making a lot of money but are happy doing music. People in their 20’s who do not yet have kids or mortgages really don’t need that much money, and often their careers twist and turn and develop by the time they do need more.</p>

<p>I love stradmom’s candle metaphor.</p>

13

<p>One added thought, I think you need to make sure your daughter understands what she is getting into, more then your wife. I have seen a lot of talented, gifted young musicians, who thoroughly believe if you get into a top conservatory program, win a few competitions, whatever, that when you come out you will immediately be able to jump into a lucrative career, with a major orchestra like the NY Philharmonic or be the next big soloist like Sarah Chang, Itzak Perlman or Joshua Bell, that going to the high level program is going to be the road to a lucrative career…and quite frankly, for most musicians, if it does become lucrative it takes a while to establish a career, while the path itself is/can be a struggle. I realize your daughter is a bright child, is intellectually advanced, but has she talked to people about the reality of it, that no matter how good she is there are a lot of people out there who may be as good or better more then likely? Has she read the threads on here about reality of going into music, or talked to musicians about it? She needs to understand the reality more then your wife, that the life of a working musician has rewards in playing incredible music and living into it, but it also is a struggle for most to make a decent living.</p>

14

<p>^Just one thing to add. Since she IS young (whether or not mature beyond her years is moot – EVERYONE needs to adjust to living away from home) you may wish to consider adding a few other high-level music schools that are at universities with associated medical schools and premed tracks. That way, if she does have a change of heart about the conservatory-style route, she’d at least be settled in a location where if successful in a bid for med school the following year, she would have the continuity of access to high-level ensembles, private teachers, and of course, the musician friends she’ll have made. Alternately, if med schools viewed her to be “too young” (some might…) and she wanted to pursue a premed degree simultaneous to a BMUS it would be viable (although it would take an extra year.) Further, your wife might benefit from understanding that music students typically do well in med school acceptances, and that it is not remotely abnormal to study a BMus followed by Med school.</p>

<p>So in essence, your daughter does not really have to choose between music and medicine if she doesn’t want to, at least at this age.</p>

<p>Further, if it’s chosen for her, the risk is the relationship, not her future success. Ultimately, she alone will determine her future success, and sounds perfectly capable to do so in either field, and further, to define for herself what success looks like for her. But you and your wife will help determine her relationship with you, her perception of your support, and her relationship to her work (eg. realizing she chose medicine to avoid confrontation…realizing she chose music to rebel :wink: What you resist persists. Best wishes!</p>

15

<p>Violinparent, you are what I was, the parent of a musician that could be a doctor. We didn’t have rules like your wife, but my husband did voice his strong concern when my daughter was a senior in high school about paying for college for a music degree versus pre-med. He didn’t mean for it to stick, but it did, so my daughter steered away from music at first thinking she would do music on the side. My daughter spent 3 semesters at a good school studying pre-med, but in the end, her musician heart pulled harder, so she re-applied to music schools this past summer, and now will be transferring to a full-time music school in January. (I realize that your daughter already has a BS degree, but is she also applying to med schools now?) If you daughter wants to be a musician, she really needs all the support you and your wife can give her. Find out what really makes her tick, and allow her to follow her passion. Happiness will be in the career that she is passionate about, not the one with the money. Since your daughter is obviously talented and academically smart, chances are that she will also find other ways to grow her career beyond being a violinist. My story isn’t like yours, but my point is that you have to find out what your daughter wants and back her up 100%. If she can’t decide, then maybe now is a good time to take a year off? Or pick a school like another poster suggested that has a med school very near an excellent music school. Good luck to you … hopefully your wife will come around about her rules.</p>

16

<p>Med school near an excellent music school: U of Rochester/Eastman School of Music. Of course, there are many others. </p>

<p>I do hope that mom comes around and realizes that the student needs to make her own decisions regarding her career. The young lady is very accomplished already–it’s hard for me to understand the down side of waiting until she is older to apply/attend medical school. </p>

<p>On a related note, I recently attended a very large party at a physicians home, where a fabulous, I mean FABULOUS band was playing. All the band members were physicians–ortho specialists, a neurosurgeon… They gig together on a regular basis. My relative plays in a community band made up of many retired professional musicians, and quite a few excellent players in the group are physicians, engineers and the like. Others have pointed out that music students on the whole do quite well in their applications to medical school. </p>

<p>I think the OP’s daughter has the potential to have both music and medicine play major roles in her life, if she wishes. Parents, give her the space and support and time to make these decisions on her own. Even if she were to go to music school and get her BMus, it sounds like she’d be only 19 or 20 years old at the end of that. At that point, if she feels drawn toward medicine, she can always study for and take the MCats then. Why the rush? Good luck, and I do hope Mom lightens up a bit. It is hard to let go, but we must.</p>

17

<p>Thank you all for your insight and advice! Prescreening results have been coming back, and my daughter’s heard back from all but two. Six schools required prescreening and she’s passed Eastman, USC, and Manhattan but failed Mannes. The other two schools told us they were late because of an overload, but we would hear back soon. My daughter has an in-person audition next week.</p>

<p>Hopefully, things go well!</p>

18

<p>Congrats violinparents!!! She is on her way :)</p>