<p>Anyone have a ballpark figure of how many people from top undergrad business schools eventually go on to get their MBA? If you graduated from somewhere like Haas where I've heard employers consider is equivalent to an MBA, is it worth it to spend two years in business school down the road to get your MBA?</p>
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If you graduated from somewhere like Haas where I've heard employers consider is equivalent to an MBA, is it worth it to spend two years in business school down the road to get your MBA
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<p>If employers really considered the Haas undergrad degree to be equivalent to an MBA, then that begs the question of why they don't pay those people the MBA equivalent?</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. The Haas undergrad salaries are pretty darn good. But they clearly don't approach the MBA salaries. </p>
<p>Career</a> Center - What Can I Do With a Major In...?</p>
<p>That's true, but those are salaries of people just one year out of graduation. Obviously most going for their MBAs have already worked for several years which is why the average starting salary for top MBA school grads is so high. Btw, I was just using Haas because it was the first school that came to mind. I'm specifically looking at Wharton and Sloan.</p>
<p>From what I remember about undergrad Wharton, only about 35% of their students go on for graduate degrees. I am a bit too lazy today to look it up.
FWIW, a lot has to do with your talent and good fortune. If you happen to be hired in IB at graduation and do well, there is a likelihood that they will promote you to associate level after 3 years. If you make it that far, chances are that you won't need an MBA and your resume and recommendations will propel your career.
For more information, read this.</p>
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From what I remember about undergrad Wharton, only about 35% of their students go on for graduate degrees. I am a bit too lazy today to look it up.
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<p>I would argue that 35% is a quite large figure when you account for the fact that only a small minority of US college graduates nationwide will go on for graduate degrees. </p>
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FWIW, a lot has to do with your talent and good fortune. If you happen to be hired in IB at graduation and do well, there is a likelihood that they will promote you to associate level after 3 years. If you make it that far, chances are that you won't need an MBA and your resume and recommendations will propel your career.
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<p>Yeah, well, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that, for the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of IB analysts won't do well enough for that to happen. </p>
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That's true, but those are salaries of people just one year out of graduation. Obviously most going for their MBAs have already worked for several years which is why the average starting salary for top MBA school grads is so high.
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<p>Then let me put it to you this way. Harvard MBA's with less than one year of prior work experience nevertheless report starting salaries that are nearly double that of the Haas undergrads. </p>
<p>MBA</a> Statistics — Harvard Business School</p>
<p>In fact, I would suspect that most Haas BS grads with many years of experience (but no MBA) would still draw a lower salary than even the Harvard MBA's with less than one year of experience. </p>
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Btw, I was just using Haas because it was the first school that came to mind. I'm specifically looking at Wharton and Sloan.
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<p>So let's look at Sloan. As can be seen on p. 19 of the following pdf, the salaries for the Sloan undergrads is basically the same as that of the Haas undergrads, and clearly nowhere near the salaries of the MBA's. </p>
<p>Now, granted, you might argue that Harvard Business School is a special case. But I would disagree, because I don't think HBS is that much better than the other elite MBA programs, and hence, I would doubt that the salaries of elite MBA grads with minimal experience is going to be substantially different than that of HBS grads with minimal experience. Yet that clearly means is that, for whatever reason, employers do not view the Haas (or Sloan) undergrads as equivalent to MBA's, for otherwise, they really would pay them the same. {Either that, or it means that those undergrads are just terrible negotiators when it comes to their salaries.}</p>
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I would argue that 35% is a quite large figure when you account for the fact that only a small minority of US college graduates nationwide will go on for graduate degrees.
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<p>Yeah, but the poster is asking for stats regarding top undergrad business graduates, not your everyday college graduate. And an MBA is regarded as the gold standard in a business career.</p>
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Yeah, well, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that, for the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of IB analysts won't do well enough for that to happen.
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<p>Oh yeah ? I know quite a few personally. Actually, I know people who were hired into IB in down years ( 2002-2005) and are still there. We must be networking in very different circles. How do you know the OP won't be a superstar?</p>
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Oh yeah ? I know quite a few personally.
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<p>Look, I know some too. But I know far more who didn't get that, and I suspect you do too. I think we both know that the odds are small.</p>
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Actually, I know people who were hired into IB in down years ( 2002-2005) and are still there. We must be keeping very different circles of network. How do you know the OP won't be a superstar?
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<p>Oh, I don't know, the odds perhaps? After all, we could just as easily presume that the guy is going to become a millionaire by winning the lottery and hence the guy will never have to worry about going to college at all. </p>
<p>Look, we have to go by what is likely to happen. We advise people not to smoke not because everybody who smokes will suffer from bad health but because it is likely that you will suffer bad health. Heck, I knew a guy who smoked several packs a day and still lived to be over 90 (and who died not from disease but from a car accident). But does that mean that smoking is safe? Heck, even he was advising his own family members not to smoke.</p>
<p>What about the people who don't go into IB? I'm not particularly interested in the 100 hour work weeks.</p>
<p>Wharton is the equivalent of an MBA, Whartonites don't even come back for their MBA cause they already learned everything as an undergrad. Also, no good MBA will take you w/o work experience you should read the sticky about MBA criteria.</p>
<p>^that's not true. undergrad biz program is mostly just assortment of fundamentals. i don't think Wharton undergrad curriculum is that different from other undergrad programs.</p>
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Wharton is the equivalent of an MBA, Whartonites don't even come back for their MBA cause they already learned everything as an undergrad.
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Really? Maybe you should explain that to my old classmates who were Wharton undergrads but decided to get an MBA anyway. You should also do the same to those that are at HBS, Stanford, (back at) Wharton, Chicago GSB, etc... they'd probably like to know that they can save their ~$100k because "they already learned everything as an undergrad."</p>
<p>I agree that Wharton undergrads really do not need to go for the "academic" nature of B school. A lot of their undergrad core classes were also attended by MBA students. Some go back to get their tickets punched to broaden their opportunities. Some actually go back because after two years of IB, they don't know what to do next , and while they ponder their next move, they may as well do something useful. Yes,it's true they do spend $100K to take two years off.</p>
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Also, no good MBA will take you w/o work experience
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<p>Every year, something like 1-2% of the incoming class at HBS has no work experience. I think we can agree that the HBS MBA is pretty 'good'.</p>
<p>sakky, minor point, but that 1-2% who has "no work experience" usually in practice has "no FT work experience as an employee following their college graduation". In practice, many started and ran businesses during or even before college. At least, the two whom I met at HBS College Day a few years ago both fit that profile, and were clearly smart enough to toast bread with their brain waves.</p>
<p>But enough about all that. How about the OP's question? For non-finance careers, does an MBA really have a much higher ROI than a top undergrad business degree (like Wharton, Hass, Stern)? I mean, there are some top mgmt consulting firms which will promote without an MBA (not McKinsey, but I know people at Bain, Deloitte and Monitor for whom this is true). For them, if you don't need an MBA for networking purposes (to help source eventual deals as you try to make partner), it's essentially a 2-year gap in their career which costs them a net, let's say $150k in cash outlays and another $150 (avg salary $75k at least by that point) in foregone salary.</p>
<p>Or say he does marketing. Or nonprofit mgmt. What's the ROI comparison look like there? I guess we can't get exact numbers, but it's a fair question in that view. For Finance, the MBA clearly is a huge net positive. For general management in industry, it can be hard to get hired at the director level of a big organization, into the management structure, without an MBA's recruiting outreach power. But for other careers - does it really make that much sense?</p>
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I agree that Wharton undergrads really do not need to go for the "academic" nature of B school. A lot of their undergrad core classes were also attended by MBA students.
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That happens at many schools. Those MBA students did not come from a business background and must complete prereqs to take the rest of the MBA program, which focuses on strategic management and advanced electives.</p>
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That happens at many schools
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From my personal experience, those prereq classes are not taken at the undergraduate level, that is MBA students do not take these classes with undergrads. There are managerial accounting classes and statistics classes for example for those non business majors at the MBA school. At Wharton, MBA students are actually mixing with undergraduate students.</p>
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sakky, minor point, but that 1-2% who has "no work experience" usually in practice has "no FT work experience as an employee following their college graduation". In practice, many started and ran businesses during or even before college. At least, the two whom I met at HBS College Day a few years ago both fit that profile, and were clearly smart enough to toast bread with their brain waves.
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<p>There are also plenty of them who truly have no work experience whatsoever. Yes - none. But they do have other 'qualifications', although it is somewhat debatable how that translates into business knowledge. For example, consider Christopher Wilson-Byrne, who got his bachelor's in 2007 and is in the HBS class of 2009, a guy who has never held a FT job in his life, although he was a NCAA All-American diver at Boston College. Don't be fooled by his listed "Citigroup" experience, as that was just a summer internship. Heck, he even discusses why he decided to go to HBS in lieu of getting actual FT work experience.</p>
<p>Initially, Chris intended to defer his admission for a year, but his campus visit convinced him to start his MBA immediately. "If I had worked a few years and gotten on a career track, it might have been difficult breaking away. This is the right time for me to get an MBA."</p>
<p>Chris</a> Wilson-Byrne Profile - MBA - Harvard Business School</p>
<p>Men's</a> Swimming and Diving Falls To Tufts :: Christopher Wilson-Byrne Wins Both Diving Events</p>
<p>I can immediately think of another guy, who is not officially profiled, but played soccer at Rose-Hulman, and also got in straight from undergrad.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong; they're nice guys. However, they are clearly living proof that you don't need FT work experience to get into HBS. </p>
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But enough about all that. How about the OP's question? For non-finance careers, does an MBA really have a much higher ROI than a top undergrad business degree (like Wharton, Hass, Stern)? I mean, there are some top mgmt consulting firms which will promote without an MBA (not McKinsey, but I know people at Bain, Deloitte and Monitor for whom this is true). For them, if you don't need an MBA for networking purposes (to help source eventual deals as you try to make partner), it's essentially a 2-year gap in their career which costs them a net, let's say $150k in cash outlays and another $150 (avg salary $75k at least by that point) in foregone salary.
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<p>Well, I don't think that's a particularly fair question because you're presuming that all of those analysts at those non-McKinsey consulting firms are going to get that promotion. I think we can all agree that the vast majority won't, even those who have elite undergrad business degrees. Heck, I can think of numerous former Wharton, Sloan, and Haas undergrads who went to BCG and Bain but didn't get promoted. What are these people going to do? There are also many others who went to consulting after undergrad but didn't like it and so wanted to transition to something else (i.e. Ibanking). Then there are people who went to top undergrad business programs but nevertheless couldn't get an offer at a top consulting firm at all. Granted, they could usually get an offer at a mediocre consulting firm, but they probably don't want to stay there for long. </p>
<p>So, sure, I can agree, if you get a consulting offer at a top firm, you decide that you like it, and you also get promoted without an MBA, then obviously you should just take that. But what if you don't have that? Similarly, if you looked like Brad Pitt, you can probably surely get a date with some truly beautiful women. But what if you don't look like Brad Pitt?</p>
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From my personal experience, those prereq classes are not taken at the undergraduate level, that is MBA students do not take these classes with undergrads. There are managerial accounting classes and statistics classes for example for those non business majors at the MBA school. At Wharton, MBA students are actually mixing with undergraduate students.
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Some schools offer special 500-level courses for prereqs, for many different reasons: keeping populations separate, different schedules, departmental bureaucracy, etc. Some don't.
There's nothing special about those undergraduate classes Wharton MBA students take for prereqs. They are undergraduate classes. Same curriculum as any AACSB school. The only reason why MBA students are taking them is because they did not before and Wharton doesn't offer a separate section.
Undergraduate Wharton students are not taking MBA classes. And they certainly aren't taking the strategic management courses and advanced electives offered only in MBA programs.</p>
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At Wharton, MBA students are actually mixing with undergraduate students.
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<p>Really?! In how many classes? I just want some clarification because that definitely has an impact on the quality of the MBA program.</p>
<p>They have parallel courses in some classes in corporate finance, security analysis, investment managements and valuation etc. MBA students can elect to take classes in MBA sections or in undergrad sections in case of schedule conflicts.Since I am mostly familiar with finance concentration, there may be other classes as well especially in real estate. No need to worry about the quality of the MBA program because most often the undergrads perform better since they are graded and Wharton MBAs have a non-grade policy.</p>
<p>If you think taking parallel classes with undergrad students will impact negatively on the Wharton MBA standing, then I can assure you all the ranking committees disagree with you.</p>