Getting In

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hey guys, let me start off by saying that I'm a complete newbie regarding the process of getting into law school. I am slightly familiar with the basics, but that's about it. </p>

<p>I'm a Junior Political Science major at UC Berkeley. I'm a Junior-transfer student, and after having one semester completed, I have 3 A-'s and a B, which amounts to a 3.53 so far. I earned a 3.93 GPA from the institution I transferred from. I suppose that my grades will be on an upward trend from here on out. I am currently undecided on whether to pursue a minor in Public Policy. </p>

<p>I have taken one practice LSAT (last month), where I scored a 150, having gone in with no prior experience or knowledge about the test. I presume a reasonable LSAT score for myself (once I've studied, of course) may be around a 165 or so, but I'm not really sure. I found the test to be tough, and standardized tests scare the crap out of me. </p>

<p>I have been an intern for the mayor's office in San Francisco for two summers, an Intern with a California State Assemblymember for an entire year, and I was also the Assistant Campaign Coordinator for the gubernatorial election headquarters in my area back in '06. I'm currently an intern for a presidential campaign, and I'll probably intern this Summer with a law office, or the City Attorney's office in San Francisco. I'm really, really interested in politics. </p>

<p>I am looking at Berkeley, UCLA, UC Davis, USF, USC, Hastings or Stanford law schools.</p>

<p>Judging by what I've done so far, where do I have a shot at getting in? </p>

<p>And what can I do at this point between now, and when I apply in order to maximize my chances of getting in those schools? </p>

<p>What LSAT score range should I fall within, in order to get in those schools?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for your input.</p>

2

<p>It is impossible to guess based on what you told us. Your LSAT score and GPA, the most important determinants, are totally in flux right now. Also, we don't know where you transferred from. If your 3.93 was from Cal Tech, that'll be read somewhat differently than if it's from community college. And we don't know your racial background. At many schools, the pool of admitted black and Hispanic students has a significantly lower average LSAT and GPA than the pool of admitted white and Asian students. </p>

<p>Your extracurriculars are fine--not enough to get you in someplace your GPA and scores alone would not, but not enough to hold you back either.</p>

<p>The best things to do to get in are to get high grades in the next few semesters of school (probably waiting til after graduation to apply, so you can show 2 full years at Berkeley...especially if there's an upward trend to be shown) and study really hard for the LSAT. A 15-point jump is, in my opinion, overly optimistic, but your performance on the SAT or ACT is a good indicator of your skill at prepping for standardized tests and how much improvement you can expect.</p>

<p>Lists of the 25th/75th percentile LSAT and GPA scores for different schools is available in the US News grad school edition or here at the LSAC Data Search <a href="http://officialguide.lsac.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://officialguide.lsac.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>stacy, can LSAT be compared to SAT ll which you can prepare for to get great score where as unlike the SAT l where it needs a bit of innate intelligence? also getting into the best law school besides great GPA and LSAT score, what do you need? is EC important just as in undergraduate college application?
I am a mother who's son got into college this year. Like to prepare ahead. thanks so much</p>

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<p>The LSAT can be influenced by preparation, certainly, but so can the SAT I. It is not a subject test, it's an aptitude test, so in that sense it's closer to the I than the II's.</p>

<p>EC is not as important to law schools as it was to undergrad, but having some EC's is still an important variable. Which ones is not particularly important.</p>

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<p>Like all standardized tests, the LSAT can be prepared for. Law schools pay somewhat less attention to activities than undergrad. Instead, most of their attention will be focused on the LSAT and GPA.</p>

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<p>Have they been paid internships?</p>

7

<p>thanks for your comments. But like for the undergraduates applications at a selective schools where so many high GPA and SAT scorers apply are differentiated and selected by their unique ECs. I am sure that there are many top GPA and LSAT scorers. How do they differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack at the top law school?<br>
thank you</p>

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<p>Not really. The top of the LSAT is spread out much more thinly than the top of the SAT, so there's a lot fewer kids with very high scores.</p>

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<p>The majority of law schools (excluding Yale) mainly consider the numbers of an applicant for admission. Like many of the posters have already said, ECs aren't as highly regarded for Grad school as it is for Undergrad (unless, of course, you did something extraordinarily exemplar like finding a social activist group in a third world country, but even then it's not as clear cut!).</p>

<p>Your extracurriculars are alright in terms of evidence of involvement in your area of interest, but you have to take into consideration the hundreds or thousands of students who volunteer at their local congressman's/senator's/governor's offices every year. Law schools want diversity and uniqueness in their student body, and above all else: high numbers. So if you were going against someone with relatively no ECs, a 3.9 GPA, and a 170 LSAT, you probably will not be admitted. So if you're considering Stanford or Berkeley, you're going to need to bring your grade and LSAT scores WAY up!</p>

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<p>what about Yale?? how are students differentiated from the rest of the superacheivers besides numbers . This is really what I would like to know! thank you</p>

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<p>Do a search. I've explained the Yale Law admissions process a couple of times.</p>

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<p>yale is next to impossible to get in to. It has the highest 25th-75th percentile numbers (GPA and LSAT) of any other school, but usually numbers alone will not get you in. You need at least one spectacular EC. They tend to like hippy-dippy ECs like non-profit, peace corps, teach for america, etc. Being the editor-in-chief of a student newspaper, having a prestigious scholarship (like Rhodes or Marshall) or being published are also good ways to go.</p>

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<p>wong thank you so much for the info. so bascially the school will be mosly impossible to get in. what about stanfod and Harvard? with top GPA and LSAT with ordinary EC will this be enough? thanks</p>

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<p>Stanford and Harvard:</p>

<p>You need a very high LSAT and very high GPA.</p>

<p>(i.e. 3.9 with 171+)
Law school admissions is totally different to undergrad admissions. </p>

<p>The most important factors are:
1) LSAT (a high LSAT will take care of a lower GPA)
2) GPA
3) LORS/ECs at a distant third</p>

<p>The exception is Boalt, which seems to factor in GPA more than the other top schools. But yes, law schools care mainly about the LSAT. </p>

<p>It is a complete numbers game and at many schools the LSAT is 60 to 70% of your application.</p>

<p>For Stanford and Harvard you need top 1% LSAT (i.e.171+) and a high GPA, their 25 percentile GPA is a 3.75 and 75% is around a 3.95. </p>

<p>Yale is the hardest law school to get into, and near impossible. You need a high LSAT, high GPA and amazing soft factors (like graduating as valedictorian of your undergrad class). </p>

<p>Starting at law schools ranked 4 and lower (i.e. Columbia and lower) the average GPAs drop significantly, with their average being 3.7.</p>

<p>However the LSAT medians are the same for the top 10 law schools or so. </p>

<p>The best law schools are the "T-14, 'which are nationally marketable. </p>

<p>Essentially the LSAT is skewed very differently to the SAT. To get into a top-14 school as an Asian or white (URMs factor in differently) you need to get 169+. Some say the cut off is 168+ which is already at the 96th percentile. However for top 10, you need around 170+, which is 98th percentile.</p>

<p>Moral of the story: if you screwed up your undergrad, you have the LSAT. If you screwed up your LSAT, you most likely will not get into a T-14 law school.</p>

<p>It's a numbers game, plain and simple.</p>

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<p>Also, if you majored in engineering or some difficult major, the sad part is law schools won't care. </p>

<p>Thus you can major in "bogus," get a high GPA and LSAT and still win favor over the EECS major with a 3.2 and same LSAT.</p>

<p>This is because law schools care about reporting their GPAs and LSATs for rank and admissions competitiveness.</p>

<p>In light of the economic recession, applications to law school will more likely increase and competition will parallel this increase. Thus this could mean that the average LSAT will go up and law schools (especially the T-14) will be filtering out more applicants.</p>

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<p>To the OP, for Stanford, it's probably impossible for you to get in. The average Berkeley applicant going to Stanford has above a 4.0, like 4.1. (The LSAC also factors in A+s, while Berkeley does not.)</p>

<p>But the absolute bare minimum for Stanford is a 170 unless you are mexican, black or native american.</p>

<p>UCLA has upped its admissions level this year, and have rejected many 167s this year. I'd say for UCLA maybe 168? </p>

<p>For Berkeley, you need a high GPA, like a 3.9 and a 167? Berkeley admissions is different compared to the other top schools. They put more weight on GPA and ECs. </p>

<p>For the other schools, maybe early 160s will get you into Hastings and Davis.</p>

<p>The average LSAT gain is 7 points or so. </p>

<p>Most people who end up scoring in the 170s start in the upper 150s and lower 160s. All the testmaster people (those who scored in the98/99th percentile and are now teaching) started in the early 160s.</p>

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<p>Also, just wanted to add the LSAT is easier to gain if you start lower, but harder to improve on if you start higher due to the nature of the test.</p>

<p>THus if you start in the early 150s you may improve 10+ but if someone starts in the upper 160s, it's harder to improve to upper 170+s for them.</p>

<p>And to J Mom, the LSAT is more like the SAT I. Everyone maxes out at a certain point and it does depend on innate intelligence. It is after all, a logic test.</p>

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<p>Yale wants the best of the best! So Rhodes Scholars, editors in Chief, Club presidents, etc. usually are the titles some grads at YLS have.</p>

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<p>^ Yeah, I know one guy who is a 3L at Yale. He was a 4.0 double major, 174 LSAT, and graduated number 1 in his undergraduate class of 5000. On top of this, he was a URM.</p>

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<p>Anyway I posted this in another thread, but anyone interested in the 25-75 percentiles for GPA and LSAT for some top law schools:</p>

<p>Top</a> 2008 Law School Rankings</p>

<p>There is a noticeable GPA drop between 3 (Stanford) and 4 (Columbia) but the median LSATs for the top 10 stay the same (with the exception of Boalt). As you can tell, you need a 98 percentile LSAT to get a decent chance at T-14 unless you are URM.</p>