<p>Does any one know if it is easier or harder to get into Princeton SEAS over the main school?</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure that you apply to the school as a whole and that your prospective major doesn't play a large role at all in admission decisions...</p>
<p>You're pretty wrong. While I doubt there is a significant difference in difficulty between SEAS and AB applications (and you can freely change once you're here), they are indeed different applications, or were when I applied. If you think you're interested in engineering and can write something to that effect I recommend it, since it gives you the chance for another (potentially tipping point) essay.</p>
<p>Unless you have shown a special academic commitment to engineering, it won't help you. Most students change their major at least once, especially from BSE to AB, so they can't rely on you staying an engineer unless you demonstrate a very serious interest in it.</p>
<p>How good is the operations research and financial engineering program? What types of jobs do most graduates who do that end up doing?</p>
<p>1of42,
Did you apply for SEAS?
Do you think that it helped you get in?
I'm Canadian as well (Vancouver) and wish to apply to Princeton for electrical engineering next year. Is the process any different other than the application forms and the extra(?) essay?</p>
<p>
[quote]
How good is the operations research and financial engineering program? What types of jobs do most graduates who do that end up doing?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The ORFE program is terrific for finance. Combined with courses in economics, it will give you an extremely comprehensive training in all facets of modern finance and the tools required to understand and practice it. If you are interested in pursuing a career on Wall Street (or the academic study of financial markets), there is no better program than Princeton's undergraduate program. That said, you can build an equally good course program in finance at Harvard, Yale, etc.; but there is no academic reason to choose a school other than Princeton in this area.</p>
<p>As for career opportunities, most ORFE majors take up jobs on Wall Street (investment banking, trading, structuring, etc.) or pursue graduate training in finance. A comprehensive listing of post-graduate jobs taken by ORFE majors can be found [url=<a href="http://orfe.princeton.edu/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3&Itemid=59%5Dhere%5B/url">http://orfe.princeton.edu/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3&Itemid=59]here[/url</a>].</p>
<p>GR Elton, I checked out the file you posted and I am thoroughly amazed at the job opportunities and academic prowess of ORFE graduates. It would seem that their major is closely linked to many job skills on Wall Street, which is unlike econ majors, who study mainly theory.</p>
<p>So I would like to ask what differences arise among econ majors, ORFE majors, and Woodrow Wilson School majors with concentration in public economic policy. I know they all study different things, but as far as job placement goes, which group at Princeton usually does the best? What about mathematics and physics? Not that this is any reason to choose a major, but as an indication of how well a major prepares you. </p>
<p>Also, I noticed that Princeton is the only Ivy School excluding Wharton that offers finance as a certificate program. For future investment bankers and traders and what not, this seems like an invaluable competitive edge over peer caliber grads since they would have to learn all the tricks and trades of the job during internships or upon working.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So I would like to ask what differences arise among econ majors, ORFE majors, and Woodrow Wilson School majors with concentration in public economic policy. I know they all study different things, but as far as job placement goes, which group at Princeton usually does the best? What about mathematics and physics? Not that this is any reason to choose a major, but as an indication of how well a major prepares you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A few points.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It would be misleading to compare the job placement rate of those majors. Many people take economics as simply an easy default major, and therefore do not land great jobs upon graduation. Moreover, investment banks do not care about your major, just your GPA, coursework (to some degree), and (especially) interview.</p></li>
<li><p>For a select few students (i.e. the top handful of mathematical minds in the country), hedge funds and other specialized groups might hire them. This would generally only happen to those who demonstrate extraordinary achievements in math or physics. Unless you are the type who could win an IMO medal (and even if you can!), however, this route is generally closed. In any case, I'm not sure I would recommend it even if you could secure such a job. Investment banks provide extensive training in all areas of practical finance, so you have a strong practical appreciation for finance before you begin working. Hedge funds (private equity shops, etc.) generally just throw you in to the job, and there's a not-insignificant chance that either you or the fund will explode. If that happens, you have little to fall back on, so you could be a very ugly situation.</p></li>
<li><p>Fundamentally, it's the coursework that matters. What you major in determines more about what you write your thesis and junior papers on, rather than what you study. If you want to study finance, you will (or, at least, should!) be taking the same courses as an ORFE major, an ECO major, a WWS major, or (like me) a philosophy major. There are also hard limits to what courses you can take. Most upper level finance electives (these form the true core of the finance program) require you to take ECO 362 or ECO 363. ECO 362 and 363, in turn, require you to take ECO 310. The only practical way to take the entire spectrum of upper level electives (or to go beyond them), therefore, is to take ECO 310 as a freshman. But to do that, you need to have studied both intro Micro and Macro (or the equivalent) as well as place into multivariable calculus. So if you don't have that, for example, your choices will be limited. Even if you do, structuring your program to take (for example) graduate courses in finance will require dedication and adept planning.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>My point is, any major you pick will allow you to study as much finance as you want, provided you plan ahead and are willing to focus your coursework on it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, I noticed that Princeton is the only Ivy School excluding Wharton that offers finance as a certificate program. For future investment bankers and traders and what not, this seems like an invaluable competitive edge over peer caliber grads since they would have to learn all the tricks and trades of the job during internships or upon working.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't rate Princeton overly highly on this account. As I said before, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, etc. each offer basically the same number and degree of finance-related courses as Princeton, just in a mish-mash of different departments. As far as learning about modern finance, you can do equally well at any of them (it just require a little more planning and forethought elsewhere).</p>
<p>Princeton finance offerings are ridiculously awesome, but don't pick it over its direct peers on that account.</p>
<p>Wow GR Elton, thanks for your comprehensive response. As a current philosophy student, how do you find Princeton's intellectual rigor? I have taken some courses in philosophy and logic (mainly analytic philosophy thus far) and would like to know what you think you are getting out of your education. </p>
<p>Also, what do philosophy majors at Princeton end up doing? Can you give examples of you and your friends?</p>
<p>As I am a freshman, I have only a limited personal basis upon which to answer your question, but I can tell you what I've experienced, been told, and know.</p>
<p>Princeton's philosophy program, along with (now) Yale's, is without any doubt the best you'll find in the country. The faculty is extraordinary (top three in the country), and that strength is distributed across every single sub-discipline of analytic philosophy (do note that continental is, in my opinion justly, mostly ignored here). We have top scholars in moral philosophy (Gilbert Harman, Michael Smith, Peter Singer), metaphysics (Frank Jackson, Gideon Rosen, Mark Johnston), ancient philosophy (Alexander Nehemas, John Cooper), early modern philosophy (Daniel Garber), logic (John Burgess), and political philosophy (Philip Pettit, Kwame Appiah, Charles Bietz, Robert George). We also have rising young stars in epistemology (Adam Elga, Tom Kelly), philosophy of science (Hans Halvorson), and metaphysics (Delia Graff Fara). All of them are, from my experience, highly approachable and interested in undergraduates.</p>
<p>The course selection in general is also very good. Although it is somewhat slanted in favor of metaphysics and history of philosophy, if you're willing to take graduate courses you can get an extremely comprehensive training in all areas. Plus, if you are really interested in philosophy, you can do individual reading courses with professors, which from what I've heard are really awesome.</p>
<p>The classes themselves are, from my experience so far, uniformly excellent. I'm currently taking a 300 level class on metaethics, and it is great. I will say, though, that the discussion section of the class is underwhelming. Perhaps it is just that I approach it as being very exposed to the subject beforehand, but the quality of other students' comments can be lacking. Nevertheless, since graduate courses are fully open to undergraduates, that is only a minor concern.</p>
<p>I should also note that I'm founder and president of Princeton's philosophy club, and we have had some great discussions so far. We also host biweekly dinners with professors, and all of those I've asked so far have been happy to come (even Michael Walzer). So, in general, I'm quite pleased with the level of intellectual rigor and availability of opportunity for philosophical discussion.</p>
<p>Finally, as to career plans, I must again reiterate that my personal experience is limited. I know one senior who is going to medical school and another who is going to graduate school in philosophy. But, fortunately, Princeton systematically catalogues the employment of recent philosophy graduates: see [url=<a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/Undergrad/Start/majors/Philosophy_careers.html%5Dhere%5B/url">http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/Undergrad/Start/majors/Philosophy_careers.html]here[/url</a>] and [url=<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Ejburgess/ugrad_majors.htm#future%5Dhere%5B/url">http://www.princeton.edu/~jburgess/ugrad_majors.htm#future]here[/url</a>].</p>