<p>Would the "rules" that apply to getting into Rice also apply to Northwestern and Oberlin? </p>
<p>(I realize that there was an array of opinions on the Rice thread.)</p>
<p>DS was going to apply to Northwestern as an undergrad. He did not because they made it very clear that the students had to meet the academic admissions requirements as well as pass the audition (his SAT scores were on the lower side of their range)for undergraduate admissions. At Oberlin, if you wish to gain admission to the conservatory AND the liberal arts college, you must apply to both...and meet the admissions requirements of both. Anyone wishing to double major at Oberlin cannot do so unless they are accepted to the college. Getting accepted to the conservatory (based largely on the audition) does not gain you admission to the college as well. They are separate. At Oberlin, if you change your mind about music (and you are a conservatory only student) you MUST then apply to the college for admission in order to gain a degree in another field. Also, at Oberlin it is unlikely that you can complete a music/other major in four year.</p>
<p>If you want to major only in music at Oberlin, then you need only apply to the music school. No application to the college is necessary. If you want to double major, however, you have to apply to and and be accepted to both.</p>
<p>Oberlin College and Northwestern are very demanding academically, as far as admissions standards go. You must be a top student. With the Conservatory, a lot depends upon what they need that particular year.</p>
<p>When I went to audition for Northwestern, they said it's true you need to be able to compete on the same level as other students in non-music courses. So, you must be a top student. BUT, they also said that if you are talented enough musically, they will fight for you to get in if you're not up to the academic standards.</p>
<p>I am not familiar with Northwestern, but I know that Rice required a prescreening tape and some SAT II tests while Oberlin did not when my daughter applied.</p>
<p>There are two ways of getting into the double degree program at Oberlin. The official way is to apply to both the College and Conservatory separately and to be accepted by both. However, if you have been accepted into the Conservatory, transferring into the double degree program during your second year is not all that hard. Music majors in the Con take an average of one course per semester in the College as part of the normal four-year music curriculum. If they get at least a B in those College courses, the teacher will usually be willing to sign a recommendation form. Once a student collects two of those recommendations and fills out the right paperwork, they are pretty much automatically accepted into the double degree program. The only other requirement is that their performance in the Conservatory has to be satisfactory up to that point.</p>
<p>It is much harder to transfer into that program from the College side because of the auditions involved. It is very rare to finish the work for both degrees in four years, but a fair number have managed to do it in nine semesters.</p>
<p>Rice requires SAT II's, which is annoying. NU prefers SAT II's but doesn't require them. Oberlin doesn't ask for them. </p>
<p>Double degree programs are better at NU and Oberlin, not so much at Rice (at least for violin.) I cancelled my application to Rice because the violin faculty would not let their students do double degrees.</p>
<p>And... I'm pretty sure everyone else covered anything else I'd have to add to that. :)</p>
<p>I will say that I know a student who attended Oberlin intending to do the double degree. His teacher refused to let him. It was either all music or nothing. The student was able to transfer to a different studio but it was difficult. I think he ended up dropping out of the music program. At any school, you need the support of your studio teacher in order to make the double degree work. I would certainly discuss it with any prospective teachers.</p>
<p>Actually - I had a friend who got into NU. He was an excellent trombone player (was in the top orchestra of the MN Youth Symphony since grade 10 - yes, there are very talented musicians from MN). He maintained a GPA of 3.4 and I can guess that his test scores were not spectacular. He managed to gain admission no problem. Based on what I've read, I don't think that will work at places like Oberlin (not sure about Rice though - anyone care to comment about experiences w/ Rice???).</p>
<p>Helloangel - would I just have to contact their (Rice U) faculty and ask them about the viability of purusing a double major (composition and econ/poly sci)? Additionally, does anyone know about NU - and whether it's possible to do a double major?</p>
<p>The academic requirement for music students is a little more lenient than that for other students at Northwestern, though not by much. The average SAT for the music students is around 1330 while the university overall average is a little over 1400.</p>
<p>There are reportedly a few teachers at Oberlin Conservatory who are not very enthusiastic about the double degree program, but most of the ones that I have met have been very supportive of it. You certainly do need the willing support of your studio teacher if you plan to pursue that path, so it is very important to have that discussion before making any decisions.</p>
<p>I would guess that an excellent trombone player with a 3.4 in a challenging curriculum and old-style SAT's somewhere at least in, say, the 1200's would have a shot at an Oberlin acceptance. (Particularly if they happened to need trombones that year.) They look at grades and test scores more than the stand-alone conservatories would, but they still put more weight on the audition than the academics.</p>
<p>BassDad- </p>
<p>You mentioned that Oberlin and schools like Oberlin will give your audition more weight than your academic record. Does that admission method apply to schools that don't have strong or big music programs and only have a few music majors per graduating class?</p>
<p>The schools that make the audition the single most important element in their admissions decision are either stand-alone conservatories or top music schools inside of larger institutions. We are probably talking about fewer than twenty schools nationwide in this category.</p>
<p>You might find some cases where playing an under-represented instrument becomes a "hook" for someone with marginal academic credentials, and you might also find some cases where musical talent is the differentiator when schools are picking those last few admits from a large pool of otherwise similar candidates. In general, a school with a weak music department is not going to take a poor student just because they happen to be a good musician. There are exceptions, though, such as when a school receives a major contribution to jumpstart their music program (particularly if said contribution just happened to come from a close relative of yours.)</p>
<p>Nope - unfortunately I don't have any rich relatives ready to throw money at my potential learning institutions. However, I've got something better - my academic record and non-music EC record. </p>
<p>I LOVE SPEECH (and it loves me back ;0 )</p>
<p>Can anyone sum up top LACs/universities that provide great music composition experiences?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>I believe that you should really be thinking in terms of which composers would be best instead of which schools. That said, some of the more highly-selective schools that are not solely conservatories and have had a history of good composition faculty include BU, Brandeis, CCNY, Columbia, Duke, Harvard, MIT, NYU, Oberlin, Penn, Princeton, Sarah Lawrence, UCB, U Chicago, U Miami (the one in Florida), U Michigan and Yale. Bard has been hard at work assembling a music school with name-brand teaching talent in practically all areas, so check them out as well. If you wish to consider Eastman as part of U Rochester, then throw them in too. Anyone else wish to add to the list? </p>
<p>Do you already have some favorite living composers who may be teaching at a college? Find out where they teach and don't get hung up on the prestige thing if it is not a "top LAC/University." You might find an astonishing teacher at someplace like Temple or the University of North Texas, which you might overlook if you prescreen for highly selective schools.</p>
<p>Another thing you might try is going to the College Match Maker on the College Board's web site. If you select just the schools that have a Music Theory/Composition major, you are already down to a list of under 250 schools nationwide. If there are a couple of other criteria that you wish to enter, you could probably get the list down to say a few dozen and then start to check websites at those schools to get the bios of their composition teachers. Perhaps you will find a few whose works really speak to you.</p>
<p>I'm a little confused. You mentioned that places like Princeton and MIT would not provide good experiences for undergraduate composers. That said, both those schools are on that list. Unfortunately, I have not had enough experience with formal composition and music (I try to search around, but I just don't end up with the stuff that my teacher and past teachers at camps and such have recommended) to figure out who I like and who I don't. Consequently, I end up just looking at the schools they attended for their education and working off of there. Is just knowing 'x' professor teaches at 'y' school, or is there something I'm missing?</p>
<p>I never said that Princeton or MIT would not be good for undergrads. Perhaps you are thinking of WindCloudUltra who, over in your safety school thread, said that those schools would be better for grad students than for undergrads. I am just pointing out that there have been some pretty good composition teachers at those schools in the past. Whether those environments would be any good for you in the next few years is your decision, not mine, WindCLoudUltra's, or anyone else's.</p>
<p>The choice of a principal applied teacher at a music school is a very personal decision. If you are not even sure of which composers you like and which you do not, there is not much more that I can say that will be of any help. If you feel that your tastes in music are insufficiently developed to make that decision now, perhaps you should be looking for a program that would allow you to start with some music history and theory classes and basic keyboard instruction (very handy for composers if you are not already a decent pianist) and then allow you to declare a composition major a year or two down the line.</p>
<p>Ah, now having read the last few postings on that safety school thread, I see that you consider composition as something that you wish to continue in college while majoring in something like political science, economics or mathematics.</p>
<p>Your decision will then be heavily influenced by how much time you want to devote to composing. Do you want to do a double degree or double major kind of program, or did you have in mind more of a music minor? That decision could lead you toward one set of schools over another.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider is whether or not the composition faculty at any given school would have time to devote to a non-major with little formal training. This would be an important thing to ask of any school you are considering.</p>
<p>Ultimately, that formal training that you discuss can probably be substituted by self teaching - learning about inversions and formal analysis doesn't require someone to give me the information when I can just as easily access that information from a book. </p>
<p>Can you comment on the differences between the double degree program and the double major at an ivy or LAC?</p>