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Curious, there is more than one problem with that kind of assessment. The SAT is a good measure of aptitude on a whole, but it is also a measure of privelege and resources. Even some differences on the test are easily explained by the fact that NoVA has many more people who are able to pay for SAT classes or other kinds of preparation. Heck, I bet NoVA even has more parents paying for those people who write or give advice on essays.
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<p>Let's try to stay away from the idea that people with high SAT scores only got them because they paid someone else to teach them how to get them. It's a popular myth on CC, but it's also false.</p>
<p>"I have a suggestion, in the interest of transparency without Youtube. Why not release the average SAT scores for accepted students disaggregated by: out of state, Northern Virginia, and the rest of the state? If there is no bias against NOVA then the out of state scores should be higher and the scores for the other two categories should be essentially the same. This test works unless you believe that Northern Virginia students systematically write worse essays, get worse recs., get worse grades and take less demanding course loads than the rest of the state."</p>
<p>I'd take it further than that. I would love to see statistics parsed by location, legacy status, athlete status, international, race, gender.</p>
<p>THAT would be transparent. that way you could see which category you fall into, and what numbers are par for the course for acceptances from that category. Releasing this kind of information will never happen though, it makes too many people squirm.</p>
<p>No, the people who scored a 1340 versus a 1310 may have very well gotten the advantages due to resources. The fact that test preparation and the like exists with a sizeable market, and that people report favorable results, indicates that this is true. Simply saying that such resources don't actually help people doesn't mean anything at all.</p>
<p>1340 vs. 1310 is due to luck. you're gonna need much wider margins to say its due to advantages or resources. this is unless you are talking about a whole group of ppl who on average got 1340 vs. 1310. </p>
<p>if you purchase and go through an SAT book, or get a tutor, or take a class, you can go up by hundreds of points. if you go up only a little, like 40 points, none of the $ spent helped you. </p>
<p>as for transparency, if you release detailed stats, while it would be interesting to see, is easier said than done. you will probably see the number of complaints, lawsuits, cries of discrimination, etc, triple.</p>
<p>Exactly. UVa loves its essays, and for a good reason. If you think about it, anyone can get great grades and great SAT (yes, there are limits, but its for the most part true). Yet not everyone has the same ability to portray why they want to be at UVA or how they look at life. The essays let the adcoms see beyond the numbers, because sometimes theres a good reason for those numbers, even if they're low. I know i'm abusing the ability to write essays simply because being unhappy with the curriculum at my current school, my grades have suffered to be a 3.2 in engineering. However, I still am a dedicated student, and would do much better at UVa. That right there is the reason they have essays: give the applicants a chance to be someone other than a GPA and an SAT score.</p>
<p>i agree...numbers games are just an american cultural obsession.....we forget that there are people here with complex lives and interests and goals and aspirations and personalities....bill gates had a 1250 SAT (i love using that example!)</p>
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bill gates had a 1250 SAT (i love using that example!)
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<p>That's completely untrue. His score was a good bit closer to 1600. Regardless, he had substantial extracurricular achievement in high school that was far beyond the typical stupid stuff that high schoolers do (class president, varsity football, etc.).</p>
<p>yeah - bill gates had a 1590 on the pre-94 recentered SAT. only 1 in a million got a 1600 on that test.</p>
<p>Gates also went to one of the most prestigious high schools on the west coast. The tuition at The Lakeside School was nearly 3x as in tuition than Harvard was at the time.</p>
<p>In-State admissions are tough, especially if you're not coming from a UVA "feeder school" like TJ. There have been bright, promising students south of the Beltway whose schools just can't offer the challenging coursework and attract outstanding teachers like the select schools in NoVA. Since there are no regional quotas, it's all the more difficult to get into UVA. Students need to apply elsewhere.</p>
<p>You know, there are other schools in NoVa than TJ, and there are plenty of students who don't take 10 APs, get a 4.0, and 1500 on their SAT. And there are plenty of horrible teachers. UVa does take into account the stength of one's schedule based on their school, not based on what kids are taking in NoVa. Although I can't say NoVa kids have an upper hand in admissions, I don't think its necessarily "harder" to get in if you're not from NoVa. It's just very different.</p>
<p>Shoebox is right, I think, unless Dean J tells us otherwise. TJ is a special case. There aren't any other schools in Virginia like TJ. As for APs and the like, what admissions departments always say they want to see is that a student took the toughest courses available to him/her. If you're in a NOVA school, that means AP and honors. If you're in the Southwest in a small town, that might mean regular chemistry and physics, depending on what the school offers.</p>
<p>We could go back and forth about this issue, but I respectfully disagree with you. When it comes down to a student from a selective, highly regarded and competitive high school and a student from VA Ordinary High, who is going to get accepted first? I hope you're right that UVA considers the strength of a student's coursework/transcript based on his/her school. That's the way it should be if this concept is truly put into action. BTW, best of luck to you!</p>
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We could go back and forth about this issue, but I respectfully disagree with you. When it comes down to a student from a selective, highly regarded and competitive high school and a student from VA Ordinary High, who is going to get accepted first?
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<p>FWIW, many NoVa high schools still send 20-30 kids to UVA every year despite having much of their potential top talent skimmed off in 8th grade and sent to TJHSST.</p>
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I hope you're right that UVA considers the strength of a student's coursework/transcript based on his/her school.
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Take a look at the Secondary School Report. The left column is where the student lists their senior year courses and right next to it, the counselor fills out the most advanced option in each subject area. If "Honors Physics" is on the left and right, we aren't going to penalize a student for not taking AP Physics.</p>
<p>It is difficult to say a 4.0 student with 5 APs is not "higher" than a 4.0 student with a handful of honors. But in reality, there still isnt going to be a huge wealth of students from a NoVa school applying to UVa. From the 50ish that applied, 30-something got in and around 25 are going, and other than TJ, thats pretty common for NoVa schools. NoVa has such large numbers though because there's soooo many high schools. Without even counting private schools, there's easily 20-30 high schools in the NoVa area. Count in Loudon County and add 5-10. Count private schools and I'd say you have roughly 40-50 schools. With 40-50 schools times the number of students (lets say 30), that right there is over 1000 students. While that number is over the enrolled amount for NoVa students, it can be assumed out of the 30 accepted 10 turn UVa down.
So, in reality, NoVa is a heavily populated area and thus accounts for the majority it has at UVa. I don't think UVa is out to get the southern VA students, and I'm sure Dean J will agree when I say that they try very hard to account for the differences that exist between NoVa and the rest of VA, that range from difference in populations to differences in classes/schools/resources. Like Dean J said, theres no way to see a quantitative approach to admissions. Discrepancies between the different areas and lifestyles of VA are too great.</p>
<p>Edit: I forgot to add that TJ is a governor's school, and i'm pretty sure there are more in VA. TJ just happens to be the one thats sitting the closest to the nation's capital, and thus is sitting closest to the money, resources, and other good schools.</p>
<p>shoebox: TJ is more than a governor's school. It has had the highest average SATs in the nation in the past, and may have the highest today for all I know. When I did my research about 1.5 years ago, the average SAT score there was in excess of 1480, which means that the average student at TJ is pulling down SAT scores at or just barely below those at Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.</p>
<p>It's no wonder they place so many kids at UVA and other very selective schools.</p>
<p>LBP:</p>
<p>You may respectfully disagree all you want, of course, but I think Dean J answered your question pretty pithily (and I sincerely hope "pithily" is a real word). I've now put seven children into colleges, some of them among the most selective around. I've also been on a task force to investigate college admissions practices for my school district. I've even served on an admissions committee for the university where I work. In my capacity on the task force, I personally interviewed more than a dozen admissions officers at some of the US's most selective institutions, and read reports on 40+ more that were interviewed by others.</p>
<p>If high school transcripts aren't being evaluated in the context of the courses available at different schools, the a WHOLE LOT of people have been lying to me and others.</p>