<p>S keeps getting stuff in the mail and on the internet from universities inviting him to apply. Some of it I can see, like the smaller or less selective schools hoping to entice students. But what I dont understand are the Ivys sending him stuff. He hasnt considered applying for any Ivys at all- never thought of himself as Ivy material. He got commended, not NMF. Hes ranked #3, so he wont be val or sal. Im assuming they got his information from his college board profile, or from Princeton Review, because of the way his name is spelled. If so, its factual information but reflects the following- 4.5 GPA, #3 rank, 1440 SAT/2170, varsity letters and some leadership stuff. But still, those arent really competitive stats for Yale, Columbia, Brown. So why do they continue sending him stuff? (Today we received the fourth mailing from one of them. Also an email, saying ****, we hope youll consider us blah, blah) Do they just want to beef up the number of people who apply? Do they want the application fees? I wouldnt be so annoyed if I really thought he had a chance, like some of the other colleges we are getting material from. But this just seems cruel- like the so-called modeling agencies who suck young women into paying bucks for portfolio services by false flattery. Johnny, we are looking for students just like YOU Yeah right. Is this just a money making ploy for these schools or are they actually interested in the kids they send this stuff to?</p>
<p>It's a money making ploy...$75.00 a pop for applications (unless they've gone up in the last two years) and then, too, the more kids they turn down, the more "selective" they seem.</p>
<p>All that said, my son was accepted at Penn (with a special invitation into the selective Vagelos Program in the Molecular Life Sciences--only 20 incoming freshman invited), JHU (with its highest merit award), and Duke (with lots of $) and he was only a commended student and had <em>0</em> AP tests (He had taken some AP courses, but not the tests)--oh, and a number 4 ranking 'cause our school ranked on UWGPAs. So, though you may view your son's chances as a long shot, if he's interested, you might want to have him give it a shot. ~berurah</p>
<p>I think a number of schools stuff to anyone doing well on the PSAT and it is a way of beefing up the number who apply (and thus reducing the acceptance rate).</p>
<p>That said, don't sell your son short. His stats aren't a slam dunk for an Ivy, but I don't think ANY stats are. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton might be a real stretch, but the others might be doable. Here is a chart for Brown showing the acceptance rates for different SAT score ranges and class ranks:
<a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Admission/gettoknowus/factsandfigures.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Admission/gettoknowus/factsandfigures.html</a></p>
<p>Huh, we posted at the same time and both used the phrase "that said." Must be great minds working alike LOL</p>
<p>I'll similarly volunteer that my daughter was accepted at Brown with the equivalent of lower SAT score (she took the ACT) and no class rank at all, since we homeschooled. This was two years ago, I grant -- I've heard they like to see at least 700 in both the verbal and math parts now and anything lower pretty much needs a hook or something else selling the candidate. </p>
<p>Still, remember the acceptance rate for those not applying is zero ...</p>
<p>Email them saying if you really want me, send me a hoodie NOW!</p>
<p>
Is there any doubt?? ;)</p>
<p>Thanks, I cant even fathom spending hundreds of dollars to apply to colleges that he has maybe a one in fifty chance at when there are so many alternatives. And he wouldnt consider spending twenty hours filling out applications and writing essays for the same reason. I posted a while back, rather whined a while back, about schools sending all this stuff out to unsuspecting 17 year olds, and I got the impression people thought I was crazy. Its sort of buyer beware but the buyers are just kids, who have no idea other than the fact that theyre getting all kinds of crap from these colleges who seem to really want them to apply badly. Like I said, I can see them sending stuff out to kids who fit their profile, just as I dont mind receiving stuff from colleges like, say, University of Miami or University of South Carolina. But they can see what his profile looks like, and theyve got to be aware that hes at the bottom of theirs. It would be interesting to know the return they get on these mailings.</p>
<p>If your son isn't interested, throw the stuff away. But he sounds about as competitive as anyone else that applies there to me, and they have to accept SOMEBODY. Not everyone at Princeton was the valedictorian. If he likes the Ivys, don't discourage him from trying. If they're not what he's looking for, then recycle away!</p>
<p>It can also be zip code related. My daughter got a personal phone call asking her to apply to Harvard, and I later learned that targeted marketing was being done by some group related to Harvard (not admissions directly), based on the SE level of the zip code combined with SAT score. This was fall of 04.</p>
<p>According to a recent stats site posted online, the average SAT at Columbia is 1435. Not everyone below that was a URM athlete from Alaska. If you read the accepted/rejected threads on the boards each year, you'll see that high SATs are often turned down, "lower" ones often accepted. I'm not saying he would get in to any of these or not, or would want to, but there's nothing in your facts which would make him totally unlikely to be accepted. </p>
<p>I will guess, though, that they like the idea of upping their selectivity by more applications. ( Berurah--I'd be highly surprised if this is a profit-making area--a lot of work goes into processing those apps.)</p>
<p>"Fit their profile" </p>
<p>You may find it odd, but Ivys, and other top schools, don't want to fill their classes with NMF, Vals and 2400 SAT scores. Your son may be getting the mailings just because of a PSAT or SATII scores...but he may also be just the kind of student those schools are looking for. </p>
<p>Yes...the schools may be looking to bump up number of apps for "competitive" marketing purposes, but they're not getting rich on application fees. It's unlikely the $75.00 fee to Harvard even covers the cost of processing the application.</p>
<p>Hah, if my son walked into his counselors office with a pile of apps for Ivy's she'd have to be peeled off the ceiling. She already dissuaded him from applying to another private LAC that was slightly lower in selectivity.</p>
<p>Wow--my S did not have a foolproof, impressive resume when he was applying. I'm really glad no one tried to tell him he didn't have a shot at his first choice school. I mean, if he really would like to go there, why dissuade him? Why not warn him about the odds, discuss finances, and let him give it shot?</p>
<p>In my view, your son DOES fit the profile of these schools. Does that mean he will get in? No, because no matter how high one's stats or profile may be, these highly selective schools are nowhere near a sure bet, due to low admit rates and very strong applicant pools. However, kids with your son's stats DO get into all these schools, please realize this. If he is not interested in these schools, then no big deal. But do not rule these schools out because you feel his stats do not fit the profile. They do. </p>
<p>My kids got lots of catalogues from schools they were not interested in. They formed their college lists independent of what came in the mail. Getting those brochures doesn't bother me (except the excessive waste) as far as schools trying to interest my kid.</p>
<p>I don't want to reveal my child's "stats", nor do I think that admissions to highly selective schools is based on stats alone, but I have this feeling based on what you wrote about your son, that you might say maybe she shouldn't have applied to some of the schools you are mentioning. By the way, she wasn't a National Merit anything, though her SATs were higher than your son's and yes, I have mentioned here before she was val. But her stats were not the highest of everyone on the pile and clearly kids get in whose stats are lower than you are thinking and also lower than some who were rejected. Even at Penn, where she was accepted (is not attending but does attend another Ivy, though was never shooting for an Ivy per se), she was one of 100 selected Ben Franklin Scholars and so if I went by your criteria that she wasn't a NM anything, and didn't apply, well, she'd have been mistaken. </p>
<p>By the way, a rank of #3 is superb. You do not have to be val to get into an elite college. You don't even have to have a 1500 (old SAT).</p>
<p>Ive asked myself the same question. She didnt exactly come out and say he shouldnt apply, but was rather negative in her response and questioned whether or not that school was appropriate for his intended major (it was). I have my paranoid fantasy of why, but Im not sure it isnt just paranoid fantasy. We attend a small private HS and many students are very wealthy, full-freight payers. Ive often wondered if, when they see a kid like mine (who wont be going to any 40K+ per year school without merit aid) applying to someplace that 3 or 4 others are- if they dont find it difficult to rank them in their counselors report, knowing that they could be jeopardizing the full-freight payers chances, while someone like my S probably wont end up there anyway. (Whew! What a long sentence). So its easy to try to sort of place the kids in the appropriate colleges from the beginning, rather than have first love kids get rejected and the accepted kids do the rejecting. Does that seem plausible? The reason I think this is Ive seen the counseling staff encourage wealthy kids to apply to lots of expensive private safeties, but theyve never encouraged my kids to.</p>
<p>I'm also discouraged to read that your son's GC would laugh at him applying to these elite colleges. He is not only a qualified applicant, he is SURELY not at the bottom of the pile as you expressed. If he shouldn't apply, who should? An applicant does not need a 1600 SAT, val, National Merit Finalist, Intel Winner, Olympic competitor to get into a highly selective college. Your son, by the little bit you shared so far, sounds like a very appropriate candidate to me. I don't know where he goes to school but if your school is telling the student ranked #3 in the class to not apply to very selective schools, I really wonder who they think should!</p>
<p>Don't let a GC dissuade him from applying to anywhere he is interested in unless it is completely unrealistic. Given your son's stats, I can't think that any college would be.</p>
<p>Sometimes I wonder if some school GC's have been burnt too many times by disappointed students (and parents) who didn't understand or fully internalize the probabilities involved in applying to certain schools. So it is easier to redirect the students to easier places.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I've heard of some school GC's who, lacking much experience, instill a false hope in students applying to really elite places.</p>
<p>Bottom line, do your own research and make your own decisions.</p>
<p>Sorry, my previous post was in response to Garland, we cross posted.</p>
<p>I cross posted with doubleplay and with Diane. Diane makes excellent points and I agree with them. </p>
<p>Doubleplay, I think your GC sounds like he is strategizing his "client base" within the prep school and who should apply where and not "compete" with others from the same high school for a spot, etc. I think you should have your son apply to a reasonably balanced list of schools that you have researched. His brief profile listed here puts him in range for most any college. The very selective schools have low admit rates and thus he may not get in, but I'd say the same had he been val, had a higher GPA or SAT as well. There are kids with his stats at every top school in the land. Further, there are kids with his stats who have also been rejected. He shouldn't apply to ALL schools that have such low admit rates but he certainly could have some on his list IF he is interested in them.</p>
<p>Please do not let this GC dissuade him. By the way, my child is on financial aid and I do not believe it affected her chances one bit. She got into six schools, waitlisted at one (Princeton), and deferred EA then rejected at one (Yale). As I said, she attends an Ivy and got into other very selective schools.</p>
<p>Wow again, doubleplay. Sometimes I'm glad I sent them to the anonymous public--the attitude there was more like, sure, whatever, let the chips fall where they may, LOL. there weren't that many out of the bunch applying to top schools, so there was little competition and, i'm sure, no counselor strategizing.</p>