<p>Varsity letters, over 700 SAT scores, #3 in his class. Sounds like Ivy material to me. No guarantees that he'll get in, but he's certainly qualified. Our big public school doesn't strategize either - at least not as far as I know.</p>
<p>I agree that Doubleplay's S fits the profile of an Ivy applicant--as do many others just like him. There is no guarantee, of course, but the only sure thing is that if he does not apply he won't get in.
The big issue for me is whether he would qualify for need-based aid, since Ivies do not provide merit aid. If he does not, he should definitely look into schools that give good merit aid to excellent applicants like him.</p>
<p>I also agree with Marite that if you are CERTAIN he will not qualify for any need based aid and the price tag is not one you can pay or are willing to take out loans to pay, etc, then look for schools with merit aid as he is an excellent candidate from the description you provided.</p>
<p>I believe you have said that your kids are on financial aid or scholarships at your prep school, and so I am wondering if PERHAPS you are underestimating that your son might get some need based aid from private colleges. You don't know if you don't apply and fill out FAFSA and CSS. I wasn't sure if we would qualify for financial aid, because we are not low income, but my kids do get need based aid. If both of your kids will be in college at the same time at some point, the aid package will rise under that circumstance, as well. I'm just putting this out there since you already underestimted his chances at academic admissions and so maybe you may be doing so with regard to need based aid at expensive schools that offer 100% of need (their determination of need, of course).</p>
<p>PS...Garland, the more I learn about some of these very competitive high schools, the more relieved I am that my kids also attended a no name public where the attitude was far different and was just like you wrote at your kids' school! Nobody cared where my kids applied. They picked and applied. No strategizing. The end.</p>
<p>Your son's counselor may think she won't look good if "her" students don't get in to their top choices. So she discourages kids who don't look like a shoe-in. The fact is, your son's stats do place him in the ballpark for any ivy, and whether he gets in depends on all the other less quantifiable aspects of his application. I would have him research these schools,to see if any really seem to be a good fit. Then, I would only have him apply to those that really suit him, knowing that the odds are long and he should have focus as much energy on his matches and a couple safeties.</p>
<p>I agree with all of above. IMO, an Ivy is not necessarily "better"; it's all about fit, but your son is in the ballpark. You have to consider FA needs, but even there, you don't know until you get the final offer. Worth applying IF it sounds like a fit.</p>
<p>I think, even more importantly, if he wants to apply to that LAC you mentioned, dp, he definitely should!</p>
<p>Just another Ivy parent chiming in to say at the least your son has earned the right to apply as a viable candidate, if he wants to, at any of these schools. But not to say, if you think he will be happy or happier elsewhere, or if you think even if he does get accepted the need aid will be too low, that he SHOULD apply. But IMO he won't get laughed out of the park at all.</p>
<p>A lot of politics go into GC advice at a small private school... On the other hand, you mentioned that your son "won’t be going to any 40K+ per year school without merit aid". If that is the case, Ivies might not be an option for your family.</p>
<p>It's not about the money. I doubt admissions is a profit center, and I more seriously doubt any Ivy League school needs the money. It's all about the stats. They love to send out those annual press releases detailing the % increase in apps and the decline in % accepted. Your kid's app represents an improvement in their stats. They moan about having to choose from a qualified pool, and choosing among many highly (dare I say equally) qualified candidates, so there is no need at all to expand the applicant pool. I really think HYP should prescreen their apps, and tell about 70% of potential applicants, "Thanks, but you really should save your money and don't bother applying." But then their acceptance rate might be 70% and how would that look? It really annoys the **** out of me when my son gets brochures and emails from Ivy League schools.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>The reason I think this is Ive seen the counseling staff encourage wealthy kids to apply to lots of expensive private safeties, but theyve never encouraged my kids to.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Has the counselor discussed finances with you in any way? Have you mentioned that you need merit aid to attend "expensive private safeties"? Do you know the expensive schools are safeties for the wealthy kids or matches?
Look at it from this viewpoint, take 2 kids, exact same numeric stats which should make college X a safety for either student, one can pay full freight at X college, one needs half tuition scholarship to attend - can you consider college X a true safety for the student needing half tuition???
If the counseling staff has any idea that your kid needs significant merit (I would consider that half tuition or more), then the bar for safeties HAS to be lowered - doesn't do your kid any good to apply if he can't attend.
Unfortunately, if a child needs MERIT aid to attend a safety, then s/he will probably not be able to attend an expensive school that is need-based either, because the need-based school will not judge the need to be as high as the parents may feel that it is - that's why you are interested in merit aid schools in the first place.</p>
<p>I'm seeing this same argument in another thread between 2 posters - the truth is if you can pay full freight, you do have more options than if you can't. That doesn't mean the child of the full freight payers is any smarter, or more deserving, or that the most expensive college that she could possibly be admitted to is the right place for her - it just means that as in buying a coat or a car, you can look at more options.
The low income person (low in this context being $50K and under) also has more options in one sense - because he will qualify for lots of need-based aid at the more generous schools, if he has the academic chops, AND merit aid is still a possiblity. I think that person "pays" for that "advantage" in many other ways, otherwise Harvard would be full of kids whose parents make minimum wage, and it is not.
The folks in the middle are the ones who have to get creative, especially those with low 6 figure incomes and unusual financial circumstances, if their child wants to go to an expensive private college.</p>
<p>Now back to the counselor at you private school, my kids go to a private school that I have described before. Your financial situation is a common one at that school - the tuition for the school is <$8000 per year, lots of people with widely disparate incomes can attend - some very wealthy, some not so much, many upper middle class, but don't think of themselves as such. I know from our conversations with the CC, that she has had several situations where the child applied to expensive private college (Harvard, why is it always Harvard?!), got accepted, got excited, told everyone, then Mom and Dad realized that there is no such thing as a "scholarship" to Harvard - certainly no merit, which is what most folks around here think of as a scholarship - and all of a sudden the child can't attend. I was told one of the vals from a few years ago became so hysterical that she did not stop crying and come to school for 3 days. From the counselor's perspective, deal with that scene a couple of years in a row, and you would learn to ask some delicate careful questions and try to educate the parents especially, on college funding - it is self-preservation. Our school's counselor asked those delicate questions of us as parents, which I think is entirely appropriate, and I'm not sure what she would do if the parents refused to be realistic, or didn't show up for the meetings - probably at least attempt to inject some reality into the kid.</p>
<p>I guess I feel that when a very good CC suggests schools to students, she tries to match the school to the student in many different ways - size, location, major, finances, etc. A think a wise counselor (and a wise parent) knows that 2/3rds of success at college is the attitude of the student going into the school, and that a given person can be happy at several different schools so that at the end of the process, every student is excited about attending THEIR school and every parent knows that he can swing the family's contribution without eating dog food.</p>
<p>I did not read the second page, so I want to add one more thing - yes, I think that your son is in the ballpark stats wise for very selective schools, you should be very proud of him, but if it is clear and obvious that he cannot get enough financial aid to attend certain schools, then I think that it is wrong-headed for the CC to add more of those schools to his list, or "encourage" him to apply. Should he apply to one or some of those schools - sure, if that is what he wants to do. But he shouldn't apply to just one financial safety, and 10 schools that only offer need-based aid if you have run the calculator and know you can't afford the EFC, for example. Throw an app into the wind at his dream school, then forget it.
The other scenario that would give me pause, is the child who is likely to get very, very invested in the dream school. I'm all for people following their dreams, but some kids might need to stay more on the ground just because of their personalities.</p>
<p>cangel makes some excellent points. But before discounting excellent need-based aid only schools (not just Ivies!), the OP should really take a look at finances. Will the student qualify for need-based aid? Then by all means apply to a couple of need-based reaches if they happen to look like a fit; also apply to matches and safeties (which means financial safeties as well as academic ones). Just don't discount the need-based schools totally. If, however, the EFC comes in too high, then it's better to focus on merit aid schools.
I'd like to bring up a few CC mantras: build your list from the bottom up. The safety is only a safety if the student will be happy attending. Don't fall in love with reaches to the exclusion of other schools; start RD apps before hearing from ED/EA schools.</p>
<p>EDIT:
Cross-posted with Cangel. I guess we sing the same tune.</p>
<p>You both are damn good singers!</p>
<p>I've gotten things from Cornell, and I'm no where near Ivy League material. They just like to send stuff out.</p>
<p>The guidance counselor also may know that reasonably accomplished classmates of the OP's son with substantial hooks (athletic, development, legacy, URM, etc) are applying early to the highly selective colleges in question - in which case the chances of the son being shut out are substantial. Some of those colleges will only take one student per year from small schools. Also, unfortunately, if the guidance counselor is trying to steer him away from certain schools, it's possible that her recommendation letter to those schools may not be very enthusiastic. If the OP's son is truly interested in a school and the finances might be workable, it makes sense to apply and for the parent (with or without the son) to have a meeting with the guidance counselor to lobby for the son and to try to determine the reasons for the guidance counselor's outlook.</p>
<p>The mailings mean very little.</p>
<p>Everyone, thanks for the insightful posts. Right now my sons first choice is an OOS public, which is a reach. Hes a Florida boy and has never known anything but sunshine so Im not sure hed be happy with dark winters anyway. But our financial situation does not completely preclude us from being able to send him to a private. If it were his dream school, I would move mountains to send him there. Wed just have to make additional sacrifices and work harder.</p>
<p>SuzieVT mentioned something before that was interesting. I dont fault them for this, but I am beginning to think that the counselors do try to make sure everyone at the school comes out of the process happy. Therefore, if there are five kids applying to the same school, but that school is number one on only one of those five kids list, theyre going to want that kid to get into the school the most. Does that make sense? This happened with a scholarship for a private school that my son had applied to. The C asked him where the school was on his list and he told her three or four. She told him there were other kids at the school who really wanted to go there badly and maybe it was a better idea for him not to try for the scholarship. I really didnt care, nor did my son. I figure as long as shes doing the same thing on his behalf its OK with us.</p>
<p>Also about public and private high school- if I could go back, Im not so sure Id have my kids go through this school again. The education was WONDERFUL. The teachers were phenoms. Highest quality. Superb. But the quality of life issues- the rich vs. middle class, the snobbery, the parental competition and sniping, the groveling from administration to get people to donate more and more and then kissing their feet I could do without all that. My advise to anyone considering putting their kids into private grade school- find out how much influence family money has, how much politics are involved in decision making. Personally, I want to know that my kid has the same shot as everyone else.</p>
<p>doubleplay</p>
<p>Do you get the feeling that the CC is looking out for your kid's interest? I can't tell from what you've said. I have a high level of trust in our son's (I originally typed "sun's--Freudian slip?) public HS CC, but even so, I figure that no one will have his interests more at heart than his father and I do, so we're trying to educate ourselves about the whole process. You are too, by coming here.</p>
<p>doubleplay, I agree with the advice of the other posters. One thing I'd like to point out is that I think your son must be pretty outstanding if he ranks #3 in a rigorous private HS. Also, out of state publics can often be just as expensive as private schools, unless there is an agreement between states to allow in-state tuition. Many posters over the years have found that the need-based aid at selective colleges puts them in the ball park of in-state public universities for some students. I think you should run a Finaid calculator to get an idea of what kind of need-based aid he might be awarded, and if it's doable, then apply to some of the more selective schools.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>Bethie, I guess I want to, have to, believe that right now. Dont I? Actually, I do believe that there isnt a whole lot a counselor could do to hurt my kids at this point, even if they wanted to, which they dont. </p>
<p>Lets look at a worst case scenario, and this is really evil but Im using an extreme example- two kids want to go to, say, Vandy- my son and Johnnie, who the library is named after and who wants to go to Vandy really badly but doesnt have as good a resume as S. So the counselor writes a milquetoast, lukewarm rec for S and a glowing rec for Johnnie. If a school like Vandy is going to overlook my Ss grades, scores, awards, service record in favor of a letter, well thats precisely the type of school that I want to get away from. In that case, a rejection would be a blessing.</p>