Getting stuff from the Ivy's

Parents Forum
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<p>Yeah, you're right. I try to keep the attitude that anyone who doesn't love my son doesn't deserve him.</p>

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<p>Doubleplay:</p>

<p>What was said about the Ivies (being need-based) very likely applies as well to some outstanding LACs and universities that are located in warmer weather and could be a good fit for your son. As others have pointed out, it is quite possible to attend a private university with financial aid and come out better financially than at a public university. On my list would be Pomona, Rice, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Davidson, Duke, Rhodes, Furman. I'm sure there are others as well.</p>

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<p>Does anyone know for a fact that colleges try to limit the number of admits from any particular high school in any given year? I know I hear parents and students say this all the time. But I've also heard some colleges deny that this is true.</p>

<p>Any way to know what is really the case?</p>

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<p>Marite, actually he is applying to four of the schools on your list!</p>

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<p>DianeR:</p>

<p>I do not think there is a "quota" as such, but many prep, top public and exam schools have as many as 40+ students applying to the same Ivies. This inevitably means that colleges will limit the number of students admitted from these schools for the sake of diversity. Still the proportion of students admitted from these very schools remain pretty high.</p>

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<p>Doubleplay: Terrific. With his excellent stats, he is bound to get into some (all?) of these, and with good money, too.</p>

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<p>I think the only question is...is your son interested in applying to any of that group of 8 schools? Call them what you will, but in fact his stats ARE likely competitive for some and not for others. When I came to the older version of this board under a different name (oops!) I never once posted my son's numbers. No one in their right mind would have guessed his admissions outcomes based solely on the sorts of information that you have already given.(he was confident however!!) There were intangibles (not uber hooks, just intangibles) which, after meeting a relatively achievable set of criterion appeared to make all the difference. For example, he was not top 10% of the class (the school doesn't officially rank, but they send out information that allows you to deduce this). His report card was littered with B's in some areas. He attends an Ivy and is doing great academically. </p>

<p>By the way, in creating his list we (more so than the counselor) were VERY mindful of who else(from a small competitive private school) was applying and where. We knew who was applying to the comparable schools who happened to be a legacy with slightly stronger stats, etc. I looked at this as part of the process of giving my son lots of choices ultimately. And it paid off. As an example, he did not apply to Pomona because there was someone who might have looked a lot like him on paper, who was a double legacy, who was applying. He had a limited number of applications he could file and we were very mindful of all of these factors. Rather than viewing the counselor and the admissions folks with suspicion, we took the approach of trying to optimize the outcome and options...and it worked.</p>

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<p>Doubleplay, I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone is always above aboard, and looking out for everyone's interests. There are some down and dirty, unscrupulous people. But I think that in this instance it is very unlikely that the CC would come anywhere close to that degree of deviousness - for several reasons.
1) Most colleges, certainly Vandy-sized schools, have plenty of room for the kid whose Dad payed for the building and your child who really wants to attend, but won't be making any million dollar contributions. For as much as we talk about developmental admits, no school will have more than a few each year that already have buildings named after them - they can slip those kids in without changing the regular application process. Yes there a number of extremely wealthy kids, internationals and celebrities, etc - but that number is still finite, and if they family has no track record with a given school, then Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, are all competing with each other for that group of applicants, just as if they were athletes. In other words, there are only so many places that they can fill.
2) There are a few highly exclusive prep schools/exam schools that send numbers of kids to selective colleges, where the lists of your classmates could potentially influence your chances as a student, especially to smaller colleges like LACs - that can be one of the downsides of those high schools. But I think it may be less of an issue than we may think. If the CC is playing real games year after year based on outside pressure from money or the headmaster, not based on the desires and accomplishments of the students (remember athletics throws a real monkey wrench into the whole process) then eventually that CC will get burned, and it will get uncovered. The real situation is more what Marite describes - lots of prep kids apply to selective schools, and lots get in, but the colleges may limit the numbers of a particular school. The secret is don't get too attached to any one school, and express your true desire for the number one choice, then let the process work itself out. We don't really know in the case of the exclusive preps how many students apply to 6 Ivies and get in and how many apply only to Yale and get in. This matters because at HYPS particularly, the yield is so high and consistent that, that H can predict that if we admit 30 kids from Andover, 28 will matriculate. To preserve diversity, they may have to limit (and can reliably, predictably limit) the admits from some schools, even if all 40 kids that apply are well qualified. I think you could make a manageable list of the high schools that those circumstances apply to.</p>

<p>3) In the case of the more typical private high school, like my kids', the CC does have to balance a lot of competing interests, particularly when you talk about scholarships that go to only one student from a given school. But, again if there are a lot of games played year after year, word gets out, and complaints start coming into the front office. Yes there could be some milquetoast recs going out, but by and large, I think they try to present each student in the best possible light, and let the chips fall where they may. After all, it is in the private high school's best interest to get "all the seniors into Harvard" - I'm being facetious, but it is in the school's best interest to get the kids as much scholarship money as possible (they lump all that together, and use to the total as recruiting fodder for kindergartners), to get into as many selective schools as possible (trophy-hunting, but again for the purpose of recruiting new families), and, believe it or not, to make everyone as happy as possible at the end, because that word of mouth recruiting - "You know, Joyce, that SPS has the best college admission experience, they really do well by all the kids..." - is probably the high school's most powerful weapon.</p>

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<p>In an early post the OP indicated her son won't be attending a school with a cost of $40,000+ without merit aid, but later stated the financial situation doesn't preclude a private. If the initial merit aid statement was made to the GC, then I wouldn't blame him/her for steering towards schools with merit aid...and therefore no Ivy's or any other need-based only financial aid school.</p>

<p>If student is looking at OOS public as his first choice, chances are there are other things this student is interested in besides what is available at the Ivy's or elite LAC (maybe a big time sports program, larger and more diverse student body than the private HS etc.) </p>

<p>Going back to the original post --- "But what I don’t understand are the Ivy’s sending him stuff.... never thought of himself as Ivy material. He got commended, not NMF. He’s ranked #3....4.5 GPA, #3 rank, 1440 SAT/2170, varsity letters and some leadership stuff. But still, those aren’t really competitive stats for Yale, Columbia, Brown. "</p>

<p>I still stand by my earlier post, and the post of others...that this student is competitive for Ivy league schools. However, we have learned there's a lot more to this story....including financial consideration, substantial input from a GC, and maybe this student's own desire to go to a particular kind of school.</p>

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<p>To the OP-- I think you're paranoid. Vandy doesn't give a %^&* about the politics of your HS. Does this mean that a multi-generation donor is at an advantage, all things being equal? Absolutely. Does this mean that they couldn't find room for your son even if his classmate was an auto-admit? Of course they'd find room.</p>

<p>I think you need to stop worrying about the GC and the politics of your school and work harder with your son to figure out what he wants. There are loads of kids like your son at top schools across the country. If colleges have reason to believe he's first generation college, fits some other strategic category, or just has a nice combo of athletics and academics, no reason for you to resent them sending him mail. You always have the option of throwing it away.</p>

<p>It is easy to read these boards and assume that every qualfied kid in America knows about Penn or Cornell and is busy being robo-admit by logging hours in whatever activity is deemed "ivy worthy". The reality is that the top schools have to work hard to get the message out in some not-obvious places. I did alumni interviewing for Brown many years ago when I lived in a small city in the Midwest (was the only Brown interviewer in a very big geographic region). I interviewed a kid who took two greyhound buses to get to my office for our meeting.... he had never heard of Brown, but loved the materials they'd sent him. He was absolutely the most exceptional kid I ever interviewed-- did not know what the Ivy League was, had always assumed he'd go in-state public and felt lucky to go there (first generation college).</p>

<p>I felt that Brown was lucky to get him... and the university agreed. There are lots and lots and lots of exceptional kids out there who wouldn't even think of applying to an elite school unless someone talks them into it. Will all of them get in? No. Can all of them afford to go? No-- especially if the kid is looking for merit aid from a school that doesn't offer it. However, unless the top schools want to look like a New Trier/Scarsdale/Andover reunion, they've got to get their message out to kids who aren't thinking about them.</p>

<p>So to the OP-- if your kid wants sunshine and needs merit aid, don't apply to any Ivy. But believe me, nobody is making money off your application by the time it's processed, read, evaluated, and archived.</p>

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<p>Blossom, amen. Again, my child got a recruiting phone call from Harvard - and it was not because of her stats, it was because of her zip code. Every year a few students from our area are admitted to Ivies and Ivy caliber schools, but believe it or not, the yield is probably no better than 30% - so even among students that are thinking about such schools, the school has to admit 3 to get one matriculated. The idea of limiting the number of acceptances from a given high school applies only to a short list of high schools. Of course Doubleplay's child may go to one of those schools, and then I think there may be some other considerations that kids in your area wouldn't typically have.</p>

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<p>Should I feel miffed that my Ss did not get any recruiting literature from any Ivy? Or that S2 got recruiting letters from the Army and Navy and from UT-Dallas and no other school? (can't recall S1 getting anything either). Or should I simply ascribe this lack of marketing to our zip code and proximity to Harvard, MIT, Boston U, etc...?</p>

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<p>blossom, my example was pure hyperbole. I don't think my son's counselor is playing games, but my point was even if she was it wouldn't matter. The "worst" (for lack of a better word) thing she did was steer him away from applying for merit aid at his 3rd choice college because other students were applying, which I said didn't really bother me because I figure she'd do the same on anyone's behalf. </p>

<p>There has been politics at this school in other areas, but I can't imagine anyone being so evil as to hurt a kid's chances for college. If anything, I think it would hurt the school itself to manipulate the college placement process. For one thing, it would hurt the school's credibililty- how can a student who has excelled academically, athletically, and socially for 4 years suddenly become a mediocre prospect? Second, like you said, it makes the school look good to have all those acceptances. </p>

<p>I started this thread asking why my son keeps getting things from Ivys. We never thought of him as Ivy caliber. He doesn't get material from every school in the country- the other colleges he receives from seem to be very well matched, or if anything, they would be safeties. It just seemed odd to get stuff from schools that are such reaches. I was just wondering if applications are a profit center (and it seems the answer is no).</p>

<p>I appreciate all the kind words though! And the encouragement! Thanks!</p>

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<p>Double-- you've got no way of knowing what it is about the boxes your son checked on his PSAT application that started the flood of mail....just like Marite can't figure out why her son got mail from the Naval Academy- but from what I know about Marite's son, a kid who is interested in math who attends a HS as diverse as his, with his scores, would in fact be a strong prospect for the Naval Academy-- his lack of interest in the military notwithstanding.</p>

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<p>“In an early post the OP indicated her son won't be attending a school with a cost of $40,000+ without merit aid, but later stated the financial situation doesn't preclude a private. If the initial merit aid statement was made to the GC, then I wouldn't blame him/her for steering towards schools with merit aid...and therefore no Ivy's or any other need-based only financial aid school.”</p>

<p>Two years ago we began the process with our oldest. He had comparable stats to younger S. He applied to about 8 schools. At every school where it was available, he filled out the paperwork for merit scholarship/fellowship. This was at about 5 schools. Anyway, I understand that this entailed additional work on the part of the counselors. We discussed it, and she asked at that time, “does he really want to go to all these schools anyway?” Meaning, let’s just apply for the top choice or two. I told her then- “It doesn’t do any good to apply to any of these schools if he isn’t going to also apply for the scholarships as well.” Meaning, we don’t want to pay 40K+ per year if we don’t have to. So she knows where we stand. I guess I’m saber rattling a little bit, because I really would not say no to my DS if he truly wanted to go to a school more than any other.</p>

<p>The result of all this, was that my oldest got several “presidential” scholarships. He went to our state university on scholarship and turned down the others. Our state U and one other school (that he didn’t get into) were his first two choices, and they were aware of that from the get-go. </p>

<p>There were some parents who upon finding this out, were not happy (parents whose kids ended up at those other schools). I heard that one parent voiced her opinion to administration, but I don’t know what their reaction was. Maybe they think my youngest is going to end up at our state university as well. Maybe that’s why she asked him to “rank” his favorites.</p>

<p>This is getting totally off-topic, but it seems the direction we’ve gone. My question to everyone is this- is there a college/scholarship application “etiquette”- that is, was it poor form for my oldest to apply for scholarships at all his colleges, even those that weren’t at the top of his list? It does require additional work by guidance and teachers. Is it obnoxious to ask them to help when they know the college/scholarship is third or fourth on the list? Is it fair to other students who really want to go there? Was it fair for my son to be criticized? What is the right thing to do?</p>

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<p>LOL, Marite! S1, now a sophomore at Dartmouth, still gets recruiting literature from the Army. I don't know how he is still on their lists -- he actually was contacted by phone over the summer.</p>

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<p>Re the military academies- my oldest son received stuff from them but not my youngest. I think it was because he said he wanted to go into engineering.</p>

<p>My youngest son does get stuff from the military in general. The other day they offered him a free backpack if he signs up.</p>

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<p>Double-- IMHO it is perfectly fine for your son to apply for any dollar he can as long as he's not lying on his applications. Nobody can predict how your son will feel about his choices come April. School number 3 on his list could look pretty enticing if they pony up significantly more $ than schools 1 and 2.... and he could end up there a happy camper, so I think you're doing the right thing by encouraging to apply for anything that's out there for which he's qualified.</p>

<p>However.... I'd like to point out to you that your GC may have misinterpreted your comment which could be the source of some of the wierd vibes you're feeling. You said, "Two years ago we began the process with our oldest.... He applied to about 8 schools. At every school where it was available, he filled out the paperwork for merit scholarship/fellowship..... Anyway, I understand that this entailed additional work on the part of the counselors. We discussed it, and she asked at that time, “does he really want to go to all these schools anyway?” Meaning, let’s just apply for the top choice or two. I told her then- “It doesn’t do any good to apply to any of these schools if he isn’t going to also apply for the scholarships as well.” Meaning, we don’t want to pay 40K+ per year if we don’t have to. So she knows where we stand."</p>

<p>I don't know where you stand and I've read your post three times. Does this mean, "We can't afford 40K per year, so without aid he can't go", does it mean, "We've got another child coming up in two years so without aid it will tough", or does it mean "40K is a lot of money... so let's see if we can get some bucks to make it easier on us". If I were a GC, I'd react very differently if it were #1 vs. #3. If it were number 1, I'd be moving heaven and earth to get every dollar in scholarship money that was out there for a kid like yours to make college possible. If it were #3, especially if I knew there were kids in the class with quite significant need who had slightly lower stats, and therefore, much less chance at merit aid, I'd be thinking, "why bust my butt getting extra money for these folks who don't want to pony up and are ambivalent about where the kid wants to go when I've got a great student who knows exactly what he wants who won't be able to swing college without a lot of help?"</p>

<p>Your statement to the GC could have been as misleading as your post... hence the confusion. None of us like to pay full freight. Some of us can't.... and need aid makes college possible. Some of us could with a lot of difficulty... and our kids explore cheaper options, including merit schools, in-state, out-of-state with reciprocity. Some of us can afford it but would rather not.... and that's fine-- but you're not going to generate a lot of sympathy from teachers and GC's (who after all, are trying to educate their own kids on middle income salaries).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
a kid who is interested in math who attends a HS as diverse as his, with his scores, would in fact be a strong prospect for the Naval Academy--

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thanks, it makes sense. Though my post was rather tongue-in-cheek.
S did not check box asking for mailings--so he did not get any; though how UT-Dallas got his name and address, I do not know, but they were persistent.
I do expect lots of high schoolers to get recruiting letters from the Army and Navy--we do have a war on, after all. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The other day they offered him a free backpack if he signs up.

[/quote]

LOL! What an incentive to join!</p>

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<p>Blossom in our case the answer is number 2 and number 3. I think where the counselor resistance comes in is where it is a #3 or lower choice, and we're applying for the XYZ scholarship. She figures, if he gets into #1 or #2 he isn't going there anyway, and I've got another student who really wants it so that's who I'm going to help. We figure, if he gets into #1 or #2 she's right, but if he doesn't, or doesn't get any scholarship money, #3 and #4 become new contenders and now we're paying full freight because 6 months ago he didn't fill out the paperwork.</p>

<p>That happened with my oldest actually. He didn't get into his #1 choice, but he was awarded a great scholarship at a great engineering university. That school, which was originally very low on his list, shot up to the top when he went up there for a visit and got the treatment. He ended up agonizing over his decision between that school and his original #2 choice.</p>