<p>Gifted programs are not for bragging rights for parents and children. They are there in place because these students NEED them. The same as students on the opposite end of the spectrum NEED different instruction than the regular classroom.</p>
<p>A good effective gifted program is not about field trips, or games. It’s about replacing work every day in the classroom with work at an appropriate level. A true gifted classroom is not about just not having the C/D students mixed in. It is doing different readings, different curriculum, and having different expectations for what the students can produce.</p>
<p>If you need or want to learn about what gifted education should be and why it’s needed google Hoagies gifted education, and start reading.</p>
<p>It completely depends on the teacher, the program, and the kid. </p>
<p>Older d was in a pull-out gifted program in elementary school. It was an invaluable experience primarily because she had a outstanding teacher and because of intangibles such as working with that teacher over the duration of elementary school as well as working in small groups on projects with her intellectual peers. That said, just because some of these peers were intellectually gifted did not necessarily mean that they did not have behavioral issues or personal challenges. As part of the academic component of the program they had a monthly book project which taught her how to be concise in crafting her response to the books which were primarily age appropriate classic literature. I was so impressed with that format I did share with one of younger d’s classroom teachers. They did interesting group projects that stretched their thinking and they also did fun activities such as brainteasers and word challenges. When our district brought in a consultant to evaluate the pull-out program in terms of movement toward differentiated instruction my feeling was that differentiated instruction is fine and quite worthy, but not as a replacement for the pull-out program. As someone who was one of the youngest in the grade with an end of November birthday (December 1 cut-off date) it was also very helpful to build her confidence. Some of her classmates were almost a full year older than her.</p>
<p>“I’m more in favor of programs that go for broad enrichment, rather than just teaching advanced topics. That gives them a break from the tedious review in class, without teaching material that will get boring when encountered a 2nd time in regular classes.”</p>
<p>Completely agree that if the program is a pull-out, this is the way to go. D and S were in a weekly pull-out program and did some fun and challenging enrichment projects. Nothing that changed their lives AFAIK but certainly more meaningful than modelling US Presidents from fruit!!</p>
<p>“Gifted programs are not for bragging rights for parents and children. They are there in place because these students NEED them.”</p>
<p>Yes, considering the pervasive anti-intellectualism in so many areas I didn’t talk about my kids being in the gifted program. As for these programs being there to fulfil a real need, yes! Probably most people here have seen the cheetah analogy, but for those who haven’t and / or for those who believe that the only reason for gifted programs is bragging rights, here’s a link:
[Is</a> It a Cheetah?](<a href=“http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm]Is”>Is It a Cheetah?)</p>
<p>I have to agree. Both my sons were on the far right tail of any class of gifted students and, from that perspective, material in either class was taught far too slowly. The problem is that most teachers who teach exclusively-gifted students are those with seniority rather than those who specifically took advanced classes in teaching the gifted. All too often, they are overly impressed with their students’ average test scores and are thus blinded to the fact that even gifted classes may not be enough for some of their students without some customization.</p>
<p>On the other hand, good teachers in selective but more ordinary classrooms (such as a lottery program where only concerned parents choose to apply) can be much more flexible in providing customized opportunities. I would choose a school that will work with you and your kid any time over a hidebound and rigid gifted program.</p>
<p>A couple of my kids were in a gifted program in elementary school. It was fun for them because they got to do a few extra field trips and activities. Then we moved to another state. I did not recommend one child (who was then in 4th grade) for the gifted program at her new school. She is an excellent student, but one who does well through hard work and being super-organized rather than natural genius. (On tests she’d be in the 90-95% rather than 99%). I could see that our new district had higher standards than where we used to live. Her brother, who was going into 7th grade, had been recommended as an outstanding student by his gifted teacher. So I had him “evaluated for placement” at his new school.
The teacher actually told me (her words) “He’s not gifted. He just knows a lot of trivia but doesn’t do anything with it.” I thought that was pretty harsh, but being new to the district (top suburban district), I just shrugged and moved on. After talking to other students in the program, S said he was glad he wasn’t accepted because they said they just did MORE work.
Fast forward to 12th grade, S makes NMSF. The gifted kids? Not so much. I would say that if the district has high standards and offers a variety of classes, lots of APs, etc., at the high school level, having those extra activities at the elementary/middle school level is “nice,” but nothing to worry about if your kid doesn’t make it. The above average/hardworking student (D) is probably going to win out over the lazy genius (S and his two older brothers) in the long run.
When I was in elementary school I was far ahead of my class. In 5th grade, I was sent to the school library to work alone on math and reading for hours every day. Also, I spent recess tutoring younger kids in math. That must have been the gifted program back in the 70s ;)</p>
<p>If you have an intellectually curious, bright child, enriching their education (through homeschooling part or full time, summer programs, online programs or a gifted/magnet school if you are lucky enough to have one available) is important for several reasons: 1) the kids learn to love learning and the enjoyment of academics 2) they learn not to coast by in school with very little effort 3) It will be fun for parents too 4) their peers are doing these things, and if they don’t keep up, doors begin to quietly close that are very difficult to re-open, especially in the STEM fields.</p>
<p>Math is especially important, and finishing algebra and some geometry before high school will be of great benefit for science classes, and allow familiarity with calculus before college.
For competitive college STEM fields, most kids have BC calculus, probably multivariate calculus and some linear algebra before college, as well as AP bio, AP chem and AP physics C. The only way to get these classes completed in high school is to accelerate math and science in middle school. These are the kids your child will be competing with in freshman math and science classes in college. Way too many bright kids get blown out of the water in college STEM fields because of inadequate preparation.</p>
<p>“For competitive college STEM fields, most kids have BC calculus, probably multivariate calculus and some linear algebra before college” </p>
<p>From reading CC threads, it does seem that most kids applying to STEM schools have at least Calc AB. But I think multivariable calc and linear algebra is not so common, except maybe for the very top STEM schools. In many districts, it is not available without college cross-register.</p>
<p>I agree with Colorado Mom. It’s not typical for a kid, no matter how gifted, to have studied multivariable calc or linear algebra unless the kid happens to be in a magnet school or specialized prep school or has special access to a local university. Plenty of gifted kids enter college without post-calculus coursework.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This sounds less like an argument for gifted education than one for accelerated teaching for all motivated students. That’s fine but it doesn’t substitute for a gifted program. For one thing, there are gifted kids whose abilities lie in a different direction. For another, there are kids who can and do reopen those doors, often without difficulty, once given the opportunity to do so in college.</p>
<p>Another vote in agreement with Colorado_mom.</p>
<p>Getting through at least AB Calc is important, but anything beyond that is not really much of an advantage unless you want to spend your freshman year taking classes with Sophs or Jrs.</p>
<p>While AP Physics is nice, any serious STEM program will be much more in depth, and will challenge all but the most gifted Physics C student. I would highly discourage anyone from skipping STEM Physics I and/or II, regardless of their AP background.</p>
<p>I admit, I didn’t read though all the responses. I’m just posting to the OP about our own experience.</p>
<p>For us, gifted programs haven’t been particularly helpful. Between my two identified kids we’ve experience gifted clusters, full-time gifted classes, highly gifted tracks and gifted pull-outs. None of those programs improved the daily schooling situation as much as flexible and individualized accommodation. In fact, the best time for my kids was BEFORE the gifted program was reinstated in their schools. When there was no program, staff had to deal with each gifted child individually. There was full-grade and subject acceleration. There was differentiated curriculum and creative, open-ended options that allowed the gifted child to work at their level within the regular classroom. Once our local schools funded a gifted program, all the individualized education ended and they were shuttled into pre-packaged programming aimed at moderately gifted students only.</p>
<p>There were social problems too. In my own kid’s schools, the behavioral issues within the gifted classes were high. There was a lot of argument for the sake of argument as opposed to debate for further understanding. Both my kids found they actually got LESS done and it was frustrating to both. My kids actually prefer the high-achiever classes where the kids, as a whole, tend to be more focused and independent. My kids want the flexibility to move ahead. They want open-ended projects that allow them to dig as deep as they can. </p>
<p>I don’t know if it’s their personality, their level of giftedness or just the circumstances in our area but gifted programming was not helpful.</p>
<p>That’s why gifted programs are so important, so that these students understand how to work hard. And they understand how to try and fail and try again. This is something most students learn in elementary school - how to work hard, how to persevere. They need to learn how to take chances and how to ask for help.</p>
<p>My DS took a dozen AP course in HS and never broke a sweat. His english teachers gave him 100’s on his essays and never had a comment on how to improve his work. The first time he was challenged was his senior year in college taking graduate level courses, and he almost crashed because he had never really learned how to deal with this.</p>
<p>Too often “gifted programs” are just more work. They should not be just more work, they should be different work. Simply assigning 200 pages to read or 4 hours of homework does not make a gifted program</p>
<p>Whether they are necessary or ego-boosters, I think if you have to ask, they aren’t really necessary for your child. Gifted kids usually feel bored and often socially isolated at school. For them it’s rather like being in a class full of kids several years younger, who take forever to get what the teacher is saying, need to do an inordinate amount of practice to grasp everything and then can’t apply what they learned to anything else, can’t hold a decent discussion because they lack the knowledge base your child may take for granted. and all seem to have ADD because they aren’t able to focus on their work. And when they get out of class, the kids can’t even understand the rules or strategies of their favorite games. </p>
<p>If your child has lived this, then you know that they can really benefit from meeting and being able to spend time with other kids like them. Regardless of the quality of those gifted programs, if they are really for gifted kids, then the kids should benefit by getting to know and work with other gifted kids. Of course it would be best to have a high quality program, but even if it’s just building presidents out of fruit, at least the kids get to spend time with one another.</p>
<p>The gifted PROGRAM may be inadequate, but most gifted children need gifted SERVICES. It is important to educate yourself as much as possible about this complicated issue so you can advocate for your child. </p>
<p>It can be a big advantage if you plan to major in a STEM field, because Calc 1-2-3 plus linear algebra is a sequence bottleneck. Having these classes already under your belt opens up more advanced classes earlier and makes it more likely that you will eventually be able to take multiple upper-level specialty classes with multiple layers of prerequisites – having at least two shots at each of these classes is very helpful due to the eternal practical problem of scheduling conflicts.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Most top schools will have an advanced alternative physics sequence that presumes Physics AP scores of 4 or 5 and which covers the same material at a higher level – essentially, the hardest problems on the AP test become the easiest problems in class. I concur that it’s best to take this alternate sequence rather than skipping it, at least for potential physics majors.</p>
<p>Post #21- gifted programs are NEEDED. There are good and bad versions of programs but both ends of the Bell curve need a different education than the vast majority. Those who think about ego are likely dealing with bright-very bright kids- it is a continuum so drawing lines becomes blurry. One size doesn’t fit all and different ages require different methods. Gifted education has evolved a lot since my day and my son’s K-HS tenure. Funding also makes a difference. </p>
<p>Skimmed most posts. Recent ones- “most top schools…”- only if you live in an elite bubble world, there are thousands of good HSs that are all that is available to most kids without the courses you know of.</p>
<p>Absolutely nothing wrong with being with older kids rather than your agemates. Also, unfortunately, those lower level precalculus HS math classes older kids will not be the top students- those will also be accelerated. I am reminded of (one of many stories I could relate- all parents of gifted children accumulate many) a fall parent teacher conference when my son was just turning 6 in a 1,2,3 grade class. The teacher reported how some third grades voiced how he didn’t belong in their reading group because he was only a first grader (nevermind he had started kindergarten a year early and was at least the youngest in the class by several months). She reported that she asked them if he could do the work or some such wording (he was reading at a 5th grade level the year before), they said yes, so she asked them if he belonged with them- they concluded that yes, he did. Nice way of getting kids out of the age equals what should determine things bit.</p>
<p>Another anecdote. Son had a friend in middle school who was a grade ahead, they met during a Destination Imagination activity (as leader I could write volumes about gifted kids based on that experience, sigh). His mother assisted and I once asked why her son wanted to play with my younger son rather than a same age boy- she responded that even playing UNO was more fun with my son because they both thought at the same level. Makes sense when you remember all of the times you spend waiting for someone to “get it” instead of being able to move at your pace.</p>
<p>I have never understood why school are so set on age cohorts. My older son’s happiest year in elementary school was the year he was in first grade and allowed to go to third grade for math. The teacher did a great job of making him feel welcome in the class and he was more than able to do the work.</p>
<p>If they keep you challenged, if a kid is ahead of all the other students in class and finishes twice as fast as others they aren’t feeling challenged and will probably start to slack off</p>
<p>I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to get educated as a parent. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it is critical to know what you are up against and to advocate, pick your battles, and figure out what is best for your child. Schools are geared to offer as LITTLE as possible due to funding limitations and philosophical differences, and as a parent, you are the one to fight for your child’s needs.</p>
<p>I think is COMPLETELY depends on the kid. Our 3rd grade twins were tested at school and asked to join the full-time GT classroom(comprised of 3rd/4th graders, then after 2 yrs you move to the 5th/6th grade class). BUT, it was at a different elementary and the boys had no interest. They would much rather play outside/ have friends over than take on the extra work of the G/T program. Although they would have LOVED all of the awesome field trips. BUT after talking to many parents in the program the G/T program has been a" lifesaver" for their kids who LOVE academic learning and love being with kids who get jazzed over the projects. Their kids also love to be with others who socially are more relatable to them (these parents use the word ‘quirks’ to describe their kiddos.) Ideally I would have loved if the program wouldn’t require a school change - I probably could have sold it to them if that were the case. We try to work with their teacher to get them challenged, but teachers have SUCH a range of students that its hard. BUT it HAS happenend in Math and Spelling this year. We are happy with that. We can’t have it all!</p>