<p>Well, my comment was directed at Birdie and her d. - who is interested in math and physics and other things as well, and there are some academically very rigorous schools on that list, which might or might not fit her. I wasn't attempting to suggest a universal solution.</p>
<p>I really know next to nothing about art schools, so I wouldn't have commented. (What have you found to date?)</p>
<p>anxious mom.......I agree with you.... it is a timed test and I am not looking for any extra time for my d......my d has decided she is not taking the test again(she took it twice)....like robym said I would rather find out now rather than two years from now....now anxious mom try to relax......</p>
<p>Actually, Epiphany, this is kinda my field of expertise too...and not all "perfectionistic" kids are OCD! Girls, who are identified with ADD often will have difficulty with saliency determination which in turn, given the personality nature of some girls(want to do the right thing, want to please), means that because they don't know what is important, they try to do everything perfectly...which takes a long, long time. They can get away with it in some areas, not in others..</p>
<p>I have no idea if Birdie's daughter has any of the 'alphabet'....and as I noted before, would be much more interested that she learn to understand herself so the implications for her future learning and school selection are clear, not so that she has a label......I think the same approach might be helpful with your own daughter, from what you have described...</p>
<p>robrym,
point of information, again: I did not say "all" perfectionists (your statement, not mine), rather often (many). The perfectionism/obsessiveness of OCD is often configured within artists. OCD is perhaps more misunderstood than ADD is. They both have a wide variety of configurations & manifestations.</p>
<p>Ohio_mom......I wish you lived next door to me....so I could invite you over for breakfast.......I am going to do exactyl what you recommended....and I am hoping it is 'test whammy'.....thank you so much....my d will get a big kick out of her condition...I will let you know how it turns out....</p>
<p>Also, robrym, saliency determination is a classic symptom of OCD, of which the most prominent symptom is often literally "inability to prioritize."</p>
<p>Yes, I know about labeling vs. being constructive. Unfortunately, this is not the way my D sees it -- nor would it be the way many teens see it. Compounding the problem is having your only sibling be the ultimate testing "star" of your high school, & with 4 high-profile college acceptances to her name. Again, the problem is much more the disconnect between her not experiencing comprehension problems in class, for example (& especially versus many others in those same classes), as well as the expectations from her teachers that she <em>will</em> perform identically well as her sister in all areas.</p>
<p>Please, Ephiphany, relax. I do this for a living, I don't need lectures and I fully understand the difference between ADD and OCD. I also know that as many kids(and teens) as I have spoken with about their learning, very few resist understanding when they are spoken with, not at; when they feel understood, not judged; and when the information being shared is made relevant to them. If your daughter is not "understanding" her learning issues perhaps the method being used to explain them to her is not suitable, given her learning profile. Or, maybe the diagnosis is not correct, or maybe many things...I can't say, but I am sure it is frustrating to deal with, particularly given the other circumstances you describe. Good luck...</p>
<p>Birdie:
Posters have given you great advice. Another aspect I would raise. Many gifted kids overthink the tests. Helping her with test taking-strategies would help.<br>
In certain ways, the SAT is the worst test for a student with time-management issues to take, because so much of it is time-management. Xiggi has some great tips. Do a search on CC (he has tons of threads on the SAT).
I believe that PA has some good support for gifted education. Maybe you could get further advice from GATE teachers? Google for GATE/AP for links. Good luck.</p>
<p>Birdie - my d. is in the same situation. My d. was a very precocious, early reader, so we had her privately tested - she scored 140 on the WISC at age 6. School has always been easy for her -- she has a near photographic memory and gets A's easily. But she doesn't test well, and has complained that she can't finish math sections in time. ~1200 range on the old SAT, slightly better on the ACT. </p>
<p>I have done a lot of work in the field of LD's, as my son is dyslexic -- the irony is that my son could barely read at 3rd grade level until age 11, but once overcoming the LD he stunned us all with a PSAT score high enough to be a NM Finalist -- similar high score on the SAT, each test taken only once, with no prep or accomodations. </p>
<p>So I would agree that it might be a good idea to get your daughter tested for LD's.... but I also agree with others that it is unlikely that the tests will document the LD in a way that will qualify for additional time on tests. Even my son would have had difficulty documenting the LD - the gifted/LD combination is very hard -- they just habitually score worse then they should on most measures, but often don't score badly enough to qualify for a diagnosis. </p>
<p>What are your daughter's other "stats"? I realized that, except for the very most selective schools, my d.'s GPA and high school record was a lot more significant, and so basically I'd be happy if she decided to bag it on all future tests, though she still plans one more go at the SAT in June.</p>
<p>I wanted to jump through hoops when I found out that Bard is truly test-optional. (Some colleges that claim to be "test-optional" require other submissions, like portfolios or writing samples, in lieu of tests -- but Bard is one college that truly doesn't care whether they receive test scores or not). Bard is also looking for kids who are strong in math & sciences, especially on their "Immediate Decision" days -- so it is one college to look at. </p>
<p>I think the problem is with the test, not our kids. Standardized tests require kids to think in a very constrained, one-right-answer, manner -- kids with extremely high IQ's or high levels of creativity in their thinking tend to mess up, because they out-think the test. They recognize the one wrinkle or exception that makes the "right" answer possibly "wrong" -- they find themselves mentally elimating every option. Or they read a passage and see something in it that others miss -- in English class their teacher is delighted at their profound observations, but on a standardized test, their thinking doesn't lead to the more prosaic answer the test-designers had in mind. It is the bane of being an out-of-the-box thinker and confronting an check-the-right-box exam. </p>
<p>Also, the problem with a timed test is that it focuses on speed, not quality. I'm not sure that Einstein could have done very well on the Math SAT -- they say he had difficulty memorizing multiplication tables. Would he have been able to fill in the answers on his scan tron quickly enough?? Or would he have gotten lost thought at some wrinkle in problem #38, losing precious minutes as he pondered the ramifications of restating the formula in different terms?? </p>
<p>It might be better to forget the test game and start looking for colleges that are less test-centered and more focused on individual talents and abilities. Girls with strong math & science abilities are always valued.</p>
<p>robrym,
I also do this for a living, & I assure you I'm "relaxed." The concern (on her part) about the labeling is little more complex than is appropriate for this particular forum, but I also assure you that it's not because professionals such as myself & her non-parent specialist do not know how to explain things in a way that shows she is "understood." I have also encountered a similar syndrome among others with a similar profile, so she is hardly unique. My comments were not meant as a lecture; you merely had addressed me by way of a reply to something I did <em>not</em> say; hence, the correction. As this is a public forum, many posters also offer comments intended for general information/education. It's clear to me not just from general experience, but from replies on this specific thread, that there is still a lot of misunderstanding among the public about giftedness, as well as the presentation of ADD and OCD, & how they both do & don't relate to giftedness, and especially where perfectionism fits into that whole picture.</p>
<p>mini,
I didn't mean to jump on you; sorry if it sounded that way. Perhaps I'm just a little frustrated with the fairtest site itself, as I had high hopes for a helpful list there & was profoundly disappointed. Naturally, I'm looking for different kinds of programs than math or science. However, those subjects prompt me to note that a helpful subset of such a list would have been, would be, a list of colleges with liberal choices in college-level math/science distribution areas, as the artistically gifted can be particularly overwhelmed with those courses. Some colleges actually have developed math/science courses for non-mathematicians/non-scientists, which do fulfill distributions. Individual searches for those are usually necessary.
As to the what-I've-found-so-far (in art schools), there are a few that might interest my D that do not require SAT's. I believe a couple of them are on fairtest.org, & a fabulous one in NYC. But understand that another hurdle we have is her acceptance of her arts path, and she is not there yet. (Probably not ready for it.) That of course complicates the problem, meaning she'll be seeking an academic college first, & then the list gets smaller. We'll get there; it'll just be a struggle!</p>
<p>Marite correctly predicted that I would like to reply in this thread. Reading the replies so far, I think an issue that needs to be brought up more is that your daughter's higher-level READING skills may not be as practiced as you supposed, if her reading consists mostly of school assignments. The WISC brand of IQ tests, and indeed most brands of IQ tests, really don't necessarily reflect a very high level of reading knowledge. The SAT test is much more diagnostic of a learner's reading level: which is one of several reasons that the SAT is used in talent</a> search testing rather than any brand of IQ test. </p>
<p>What does your daughter read for fun? How much time per day does she spend reading nonassigned materials? Does her preferred reading matter seem to be conspicuously challenging, and varied in subject matter? Has she ever had an individually administered open-ended achievement test? (The WIAT II achievement test would be the test most useful to interpret in light of a previous WISC score.) I would look at the reading angle first, and working on that should help both her test scores and her college readiness (which is really the important issue, after all). Check one of my very recent posts here on CC (on the SAT and ACT forum) for more advice on preparing for a higher SAT score by reading more.</p>
<p>
[quote]
.my d has decided she is not taking the test again(she took it twice)..
[/quote]
I think your daughter has made the right decision. Rather than focus on the test, you can now focus on finding the right colleges -- working from her strenghths, not her weaknesses. </p>
<p>I was pretty bummed out about my daughter's own dismal performance until I decided to do a little research into her particular "hook". That led me to at least 2, maybe 3, top ten LAC's where her interests may be enough to get them to disregard test scores -- her scores aren't impossibly low, just in the bottom quartile for those schools. So I see the schools as still being big reaches -- but they just moved out of the "don't waste the application fee" category into "reasonable chance" arena.</p>
<p>On the other hand - it may be that colleges that are a little less competitive in admission turn out to offer the best programs, esp. if your daughter is interested in doing undergraduate research. It's just that there can be lot more opportunities for a student in places where the competition isn't quite so fierce. </p>
<p>And you never quite said how low your daughter's scores were. On these boards there are many students and parents who are disappointed with scores that others would consider excellent. You may have to cross a few colleges off the list, but find many more where her scores are more than adequate to get admitted.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>you say:</p>
<p>
[quote]
But understand that another hurdle we have is her acceptance of her arts path, and she is not there yet. (Probably not ready for it.) That of course complicates the problem, meaning she'll be seeking an academic college first, & then the list gets smaller. We'll get there; it'll just be a struggle!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do you mean she does not <em>want</em> to pursue the arts, but instead wants to do an academic path, like her older sister? I don't know if I am interpreting your post correctly...</p>
<p>I would think there are plenty of top quality LACs with a heavy arts emphasis (like Bard, Skidmore, Vassar, etc) that might be good for both regular & arts classes, so she can enjoy the regular academics but naturally drift towards her passions & strengths. </p>
<p>I would also suggest schools, like Vassar, with an open curriculum-- kids don't have to take distribution requirements or core classes.</p>
<p>calmon...I have to agree with you about not taking the test again. She is scheduled to take the SAT ll in math and she is working on the 10 realistic SAT ll by Meylani. She has considered taking the ACT but I told her that was completely her decision. She always has the option to take the test in the fall just for her own piece of mind. She just couldn't understand how a four hour test weighs as heavily as four years of academic success in high school . I told her welcome to the real world! </p>
<p>My d has a 3.89 out of 4.00 and has been in all honors and Ap classes. She has good ec and is an athlete. My d's scores aren't impossibly low either, they are in the bottom quartile for the reach schools. You have put us on a mission . We definitely need to quit focusing on the test score and move on. Thanks for the great advice....and good luck to you!.</p>
<p>Epiphany, this is from the XX in the mini household (I still can't figure out why he choose that name). I was an art major at Hampshire 30 years ago and I took a lot of sclupture classes at Mt. Holyoke. The art dept was great then, but I don't know about now. Our D and I toured Bard a couple of years ago and studio arts seemed to be quite strong there. (They also have a waterfall on campus, which appealed to my D even though she eventually chose Smith)</p>
<p>tokenadult...glad your are here! You are correct, an IQ test doesn't reflect a high level of reading knowledge but I don't bellieve that is the objective of the test. I understood it to measure your mental maturity, which is not based on subject matter that has been taught (not an objective based test) That is why the best time to take this test is at the age of 6 or before 8. It is a very reliable predictor of ability (not success). I guess I prefer the WISC III because the test can't be taught and no one has to be "stressed out" over taking it! As well as the fact that it has been proven over many, many years to be one of the best indicators of intelligence. </p>
<p>I am only familiar with the SAT on a very limited bases. But I wouldn't consider it a reading diagnostic test. In my experience with my d the results of her WISC III was the test which qualifed her for the John Hopkins Gifted and Talented Search as well as her acceptance into Carnegie Mellon C-Mites. With the C-mites she took workshops at CMU (2nd,3d,4th,5th grade) and with John Hopkins she took advanced classes in math and science on the computer with a mentor who worked with her on line.(7-8 grade)</p>
<p>What is so interesting about my d is she has always done well on her Nationally normed tests (which are timed tests). Our school district tests every year K-6. Several times she hit the ceiling on the math tests and always finished in the 99% across the board. That is why I was so shocked when she said she was not able to finish.</p>
<p>The school did approach me about an opened ended achievement test because she had hit the ceiling in math on the National test so many times, but I just didn't find it necessary. I never would have allowed her to skip a grade and I felt I was exposing her enough at home. She was such a happy camper.....she loved school. Typical of elementary student...... her favorite part of the day was recess. </p>
<p>I know, without a doubt she enjoys math more than reading novels but she is a good reader but a slow reader and it is not her favorite pass time. Our home has always had books, books, books, every type imaginable. I do knowthat she always favored factual books. Which goes hand and hand with her difficulty deciding what the poet was trying to say in his poem...but that is a whole other story... </p>
<p>I did read the forum about reading and found it interesting. We are practicing, practicing, practicing for the SAT II Math so I am hopeful this is what will make the difference. We did one session of private tutoring for our first SAT test (24 hours).....maybe that just wasn't enough.....or maybe I do need to be concerned....this is why I am having the school review her situation......and if by the slighest chance there is an issue with her reading comprehension....we can at least face the issue head on before she starts college.....all of your help is appreciated...I will keep you posted on the outcome....</p>
<p>a special thanks to calmom keep me posted about your hooks and I can't wait to pass on the new term "test Whammy" I love it and I have no doubt a little giggling and a relaxing walk may make all the difference in the world to my d .....</p>
<p>wow....I didn't realize how long my post was.....but mission accomplished......</p>
<p>Birdie, my daughter did do better with the ACT than SAT - I am very glad she took it, esp. as my daughter has a weak SAT II score and is not likely to do well in that area due to her curriculum not matching the available subject areas. (Her foreign exchange this year meant that she will not be taking some subjects covered by the tests until senior year - and unlike your d., math is a weakness for mine). Just about every private college I have looked into will accept ACT in lieu of both SAT I and SAT II.</p>
<p>My d's sense was that the ACT didn't have as many "trick" questions as the SAT. She thought the math questions were easy, though she didn't have time to finish them all. Her ACT composite is not great, but a notch above the SAT - and the score breakdown is much better, because she has an extremely high score in one area - whereas on the SAT both math & verbal were mediocre. So not only is the ACT score better for her, but it also does a better job of highlighting her strongest area. Plus the test - even with the optional writing section - is shorter. I honestly wish my daughter would just brush up on her math and retake the ACT... I think she's in for disappointment with a retake of the SAT.</p>
<p>If your daughter's an athlete - USE it. Find schools where her sport is considered important, but which are not the strongest schools for that sport (unless your daughter is good enough to be recruited by the schools with the top teams). The idea is to find places where the team is good enough to keep your daughter happy -- but where she might be one of their top players (or simply a reliable player, if its a sport where its hard for the school to keep enough active players to field a good team). </p>
<p>Anyway, the strategy I'm suggesting for my daughter is to limit the reach schools to those where her hook is likely to make a difference - and other than that to focus on the matches and likelies.</p>
<p>Birdie, is your daughter a rising senior? If she will be applying to colleges next year, we need you to add your name to our growing list here:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=59239&page=1%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=59239&page=1</a></p>
<p>Okay, I am chiming in. I am a school psychologist and I am approached by parents of bright high achieving kids frequently about their concerns about their son or daughter's performance on timed, high stakes testing. This is what I tell them:</p>
<p>The SAT/ACT aren't perfect and don't reflect everything our kids know and do. Grades, ECs, and other activities, awards, and recognitions are other indicators that reflect how kids perform outside the timed conditions of the SAT/ACT. Next, I tell them that we (the school system) evaluate students to determine if they are gifted or disabled if an effort to provide them with needed services. If the assessment, reviewed by a multidisciplinary team, determines that the student has an identified educational disabilty (states determine specific educational disabilities based on federal regulations (IDEA 1997, 2004 and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act)) the disability MUST have adverse educational impact. More specifically, the disability (e.g., ADHD, OCD, whatever) must adversely impact on the child's educational performance. If that child is achieving/performing well in school then there is no educational impact. Just because the child doesn't kick butt on the SAT/ACT does not mean that there is adverse educational impact.</p>
<p>I think we really need to be careful as school professionals and as parents that we don't invent disabilities and bogus impact statements to insure that kids' get unfair advantages on the SAT/ACT. The purpose of test accommodations is to ensure that a kid's disability doesn't account for how they performed, that we measure the constructs assessed not the impact of the disability. Test accommodations are not for the purpose of ensuring that kids get into top tier schools...that's working the system and is dishonest.</p>
<p>As you can tell I feel strongly about this topic. I am committed to helping students with real disabilties get the accommodations they are entitled to. I will not be a party to identifying a kid doing great in school as disabled to help them "get over" on the system.</p>