<p>Calmom-
I truly appreciate your valuing my opinion. That means a lot. However, you pose some sticky questions that I may prefer not to wade into. Sorta like asking when did you stop beating your wife... What I am comfortable saying is that the SAT's are supposed to be a predictor of success in college. As for the other questions, I plead the fifth :)</p>
<p>Jym, your explanation in post 119 makes a lot of sense to me. My son said he always "overthinks" the SAT (I and II). I never really understood what he meant until I read your post. Thanks!</p>
<p>jym626..refer to post 19 for test whammy....I honestly don't know if I could call it test anxiety. She does feel stressed during finals week and when she has many assignments, tests, projects due all at once. She knows she works slow, although she never has a problem with the amount of time she takes to do her school work. She didn't tell me she was nervous about the test. I didn't notice any anxiety. She normally has a certain look on her face (she competes in a sport) that lets me know she is anxious or nervous. I know that look so well. Usually she does share her feellings with me. I believe she felt prepared. I know after the test she felt frustration, because she didn't finish. </p>
<p>"They may think of multiple ways to answer a question or to go about calculating a math problem" This sounds just like her.</p>
<p>What type of testing is recommended? Can the issue be resolved through specific training? If it can be resolved ,is it a long process. </p>
<p>Looking forward to your advice...</p>
<p>OK, I will post a wee bit about a real life experience with gifted/LD for an example. Any professionals, please excuse any errors, as this happend several years ago and I know just enough to be dangerous- I may misstate some detail which makes no sense to you, but is how I recall things ;)</p>
<p>My D2 had experienced a great deal of frustration, beginning in about 2nd grade, tears, almost tantrums. She saw the psychologist once a year thereafter, at my request. No battery of tests, just a half hour review. No diagnosis. </p>
<p>In 4th grade she tested for the gifted program and did not make the cut. Her 4th/5th/6th teachers questioned her not being in the program, but as it was a pull out with extra work and she is horribly slow, I did not want her in it anyway and did not fight the testing. In 6th grade, she still was not happy with herself and her work and her slowness, reading was a big struggle, she read well, but hated it and often I would read aloud while she tidied her room. Her frustration with reading was at a very high level and it maniferst as frustration with herself!</p>
<p>The new psychologist had a gifted/LD son and for some reason, she agreed to test my D. Did the full 3-4 hour battery and called me and told me she saw no problems, but would run the numbers anyway. She called me the next day, D has an IQ more than 2 std deviations past the norm (as I recall, the psych said she had to be 1 std dev to qualify for Gifted Ed and she was more than 2 away from the norm,) but her processing speed was a full 30 points lower, though still above average. So, depsite being waaay beyond our district's gifted standard, she didn't get in, because her LD did not allow her to show her true self on the short timed test given.</p>
<p>This processing discrepency is big. They explained that when she reads the "train" gets loaded with the words, but many times gets lost on the tracks and does not arrive to unload in her brain, so she was reading and rereading the words over and over again for anything longer than a couple of sentences. Yet her reading comprehension is very high. Teachers and the psychologists could not see this without the numbers being run as my D was still performing above average, well above average, but not any where near her potential!</p>
<p>She ended up with extra time allowed on timed tests. That is about the only accomodation she has and she needs every minute of it. With the extra time on the SAT, she was in the same percentile as her older sister who had no extra time, and didn't even need all the time to finish. So, the way I see it, she was allowed to show her true potential. No 1600s here, just the 1400 area which reflects where she should be. It was a fair and accurate assessment, in my oponion. Even with extra time, she did not finish!!</p>
<p>My D understands that this is an artificial accomodation for an artificial testing circumstance. She cannot expect real life to give her extra time and she will have to choose a profession in which she can do the work in a timely fashion.</p>
<p>There are some people who work very quickly, some who work very slowly, she could have ende dup being just been a slow worker, but it was her frustration with herself which prompted me to continue to pursue testing. I hated see her get more and more down on herself for being stupid, while earning straight As. Besides extra time on tests allowing her to perform to her true potential, she has learned a great deal about herself and how to most effectively accommodate her personal problem- no crutch, no excuses, just learning more about herself to be able to do well.</p>
<p>She is happy and confident and knows how she learns, and her high school gives timed exams to every student twice a year- my D has to go to the extra time candidate room. This is embarrassing as her friends know she is one of the top 5 students in her grade and she frequently gets comments about how others could do better too with extra time. She has learned to work through that. One of the best off-shoots is that she is friends with so many of the kids who need extra time who, to be blunt, are not all very bright. They all relate and it has been a good "cross clique" connection. I hope this does not come across as superior, but rather, if the "smart" kids are in the "smart" class, then they don't mix with the "not smart class" kids, simply due to class schedules. My D has been the catalyst for a lot of mixing and, if this doesn't sound too sappy, has been inspirational to some of the kids who could feel like extra time does not have to mean they are "dumb." Both from their perspective and that of the smartest kids. (this from parent comments)</p>
<p>So, what I am saying, not as eloquently as I wish, is that if there really is a learning disability, it can be hidden in a bright kid because they can adapt well. Once it is diagnosed, it is such a relief to know what's worng- my D always knew there was something wrong with her- and do something about it.</p>
<p>Hope this makes sense :D</p>
<p>somemom.....It makes a great deal of sense and thanks for sharing the story. Not only does your d come out a winner but she helped the kids she met along the way feel like winners.</p>
<p>somemom,
To this educator and Mom with a Gifted L/D, your post does indeed make a lot of sense, & rings true. It is actually really important for parents & other lay people to weigh in on many ways of expressing this, & with many examples. Both professionals and the public at large are in need of a great deal of education about the topic. Until recently, there has been rather widespread ignorance, both about learning differences/"disabilities", and about giftedness. I'm thankful for your post.</p>
<p>Birdie-
Post #19 sounds to me like the test having the "whammy" on someone means that it (the SAT) is psyching them out--The poster is describing strategies to relax and take better control--also how to learn to manage time during the test. This sounds to me like learning test-taking strategies - knowing when to move on and skip a question. Yes, this can be learned, and there are many SAT prep folks in different communities who will teach these test-taking strategies. Also, a lot of the SAT prep books describe how to do this. </p>
<p>As for which tests to give, that depends on the problem the student is having. I would be very hesitent to recommend a specific battery of tests without knowing the nuances of the issues the student is dealing with. The family usually meets with the professional for an initial appointment to discuss the student's history and presenting problems, and from that the specific tests to be given would be determined by the clinician. However, that said, I would strongly recommend you go to the Collegeboard and ACT websites and read the guidelines for accomodations. Here is the list from Collegeboard that gives suggestions for tests that might be used to document disabilities <a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/ssd/student/limitations.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/ssd/student/limitations.html</a> Here are the guidelines from ACT <a href="http://www.act.org/aap/disab/policy.html#proc%5B/url%5D">http://www.act.org/aap/disab/policy.html#proc</a></p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, Colloegeboard or ACT might ask for additional documentation once the initial forms have been submitted by your counselor. Sometimes you think you've sent what they need, and they ask for more. That is within their right, and we have to follow their rules. But as a starting point, it would be best to have your clinician read carefully the criteria spelled out by Collegeboard and ACT. As they (Collegeboard/ACT) make the decisions, you want to give them what they want/need to do so.</p>
<p>Hope this helps. Good luck!</p>
<p>over30-
You are most welcome. I also suspect, when someone says they "overthink" the test that they may read too much into a question. They wonder about trick questions, hidden meanings, multiple possibilities... "Are they asking this?? Could they mean this??" They overanalyze the question. They may sometimes think a question is more complex than it is. My favorite example was from a friend of my older son's, who flunked her written learners permit test the first time she took it. One example of a question she got wrong was "what do you do when you get to a stop sign? She surmised that what they were "really" asking is what should you do as you approach it, so she selected "slow down", since you need to slow down as you get to it. Of course, the answer they were looking for was "stop". Duh.</p>
<p><em>edit</em>
Calmom-
I forgot to respond to one of your questions-- Yes AP's and the ACT are measures of knowledge. Easier to study for those more fact-based tests, and therefore a little less anxiety-producing. It is easier to feel like you can get a "handle" on those tests. The SAT got rid of some of the "critical thinking" tasks (like the analogies), but is still harder to study for, unless you can memorize the dictionary :)</p>
<p>SBmom,
Sorry I've taken so long to reply here; I've been a bit overwhelmed with all the "emotion" on the board lately (various threads), & have not been surfing too much, therefore.
Thanks for your questions. What I mean by my possibly cryptic remark about an "arts path" is that the saturated intellectual atmosphere at home (her sister + myself), as well as the academic emphasis at her demanding prep school (including even within the arts classes, to some extent), makes it difficult for her even to recognize how she is differentiated from that, and what her niche or niches are and can be. Add to that the exploratory nature of adolescent identity, characterized often by experimenting with choices, "trying on" hats, etc. But add the third (i.m.o., most important) element: the enormous step required to commit to an artistic identity, which can be frightening to many adults, let alone adolescents. Not trying to be melodramatic here, just realistic. Been there, done that, myself, being jointly intellectual & artistic, and with a mother who was the same. (But my younger D is more overtly, more uniformly, more temperamentally artistic than either myself or my mother.) The "life" (including the study life) of an artist is fraught with risk & characterized by risk. Whether an artist, young or old, is conscious of that risk, is immaterial. It is a subconscious reality & dynamic. (Were it not, The Artist's Way would never have to be written.)</p>
<p>My D, therefore, has a triple hurdle. I do understand & have come to terms with the possibility that she may not come to own this identity in high school. The problem is, we have not a lot of college money to experiment with, & for her to make mistakes with -- trying on her sister's identity or those of her peers, until she realizes what she <em>should</em> have done. My contingency plan is to steer her toward some LACs that at least have strong arts options within them. Few of the ones that would be challenging enough for her are also brazen enough to dispense with the standardized testing prerequisite. </p>
<p>BTW, for those who kindly mentioned Bard & Mt. Holyoke: Bard's film program (one of the options that she's gifted in) is highly analytical & cerebral; I've reviewed its curriculum thoroughly; this would not appeal to her; there are also other aspects of Bard that would not be appropriate for her (rural location, among other things). She would not be interested in a female school, so scratch MH. So far, I do have a "short list" of about 5-8 colleges which I will beg her to look at. (Her super-independence being the 4th significant hurdle here.)</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for your previously posted interest/suggestions.</p>
<p><a href="Her%20super-independence%20being%20the%204th%20significant%20hurdle%20here.">quote="epiphany"</a>
[/quote]
Yeah, same problem here.</p>
<p>I'm not sure if it's available on line, but this month's Stanford alumni magazine has an article on the accomodations and support Stanford offers for physically challenged as well as for LD students which I found quite heartening. Clearly, students contending with LD including dyslexia, cognitive processing and fluency issues are welcome and excell there with appropriate accomodation. The issue, then, would seem to be gaining appropriate accomodation at high school and from the ETS so that the student can work to potential and get through the gate.</p>
<p>I haven't been keeping up with this thread because I don't think either of my children are "gifted". However, it seems that the term "gifted" has a few meanings (based on this thread - I could be confused).</p>
<p>I saw the reference to Weschler and wanted to note that my D (7) just completed this WIAT-II. I recieved the report today. She tested "average" in most of the areas, and "very superior" in the listening comprehension. </p>
<p>She seems to have the most diffifulty in understanding what she has read....translating the words into something she can paraphrase or explain. </p>
<p>The recommendation is that she begin Wilson Reading Program with variants of the Orton Gillingham approach. </p>
<p>What I find to be frustrating is that I still have no information on the cause of her reading/comprehension problems. She has been tested extensively in school and via a program she was referred to via school. I have lots of corrective recommendations, but not a single "cause" or diagnosis. </p>
<p>Many of the parents here were very helpful several months ago when I first raised this concern. I will follow-up on those suggestions now that I have completed some of the basic testing.</p>
<p>I had not read this thread until now. In fact, I don't have time to weed through all the posts. I came to check it out because I have not been able to keep up with all the threads on the Parent Forum lately and when I get backlogged, I miss a great deal. I came to check this one out because another thread referred to this one as, shall we say, contentious in some way. And then I thought...hmm...the topic is Gifted, certainly a topic that has interested me a great deal over the years with my own kids. I read the first post and several after and have not gotten to them all and so I hope I do not regret posting out of order as the conversation likely has led to a myriad of other things by now. So....realize I am not following the entire convo here....</p>
<p>But back to Birdie on your original post.....I can totally relate to this post! I have a child with a similar profile. She too was an excellent straight A student in all the hardest classes. She, too, always scored in the 99th percentile on any standardized tests throughout her schooling. She qualified for the Johns Hopkins CTY, etc. etc. Like your D, she is also an athlete. Another similarity is that she is outstanding and advanced/accelerated in math and physics. But like your D, she initially had trouble finishing all the questions on the SATs and her score was a reflection of that. I never dreamt, nor believe now, that she has any learning disabilities or disorders of any sort. She just needed to learn how to take this test because maybe she was methodical or just works slowly and meticulously, not sure. At her age, I never could finish all the reading questions on time on the SAT either. </p>
<p>My D took a practice SAT at the start of junior year (at home). It gave us a baseline. The score was respectable in general but clearly not in the same league as the rest of her profile like valedictorian and perfect GPA, yadda yadda. Like you, it seemed like the score might keep her from being considered at schools that were appropriate for her academic and personal profile and achievements. She decided to work several sessions with a tutor regarding taking the test. It was not like she had to work on the content of the material but rather, in how to take the test and finish on time mostly. She maybe spent six sessions with a tutor, took a few practice tests timed at home, and took a few proctored practice tests as well. She was able to work through strategies, I suppose, in how to finish the test in the allotted time. She took the SAT for real in April of junior year, went up 100 points from her baseline practice the prior fall. She retook it again in June (two months later) and went up another 100 points for a total of 200 points and exceeded her goal, which was maybe not in the stratosphere of the SATs I read about on CC, but were "good enough" to get in the ballpark at the selective colleges where her profile as a learner and student were appropriate. The difference, I believe, was that she completed all the questions (or skipped a couple she was unsure of). </p>
<p>I suggest if your D is willing, to either take many practice timed tests and/or work with a tutor on this particular strategy or goal of finishing the test in the allotted time. I know it worked for my D and that one thing improved the score...she was losing points by not finishing it. I even think her MathIIC test score is not indicative of her math because she was two years accelerated in math....got a 780 on the Math SAT1 but for some reason the Math 2C score does not reflect her ability (she has since gotten straight A's at Brown including doing excellent in engineering, because the test just was not the indicator of her math prowess). She even skipped a couple levels of math at Brown due to her AP scores on Calculus AB and Calculus BC exams. I am sure if she worked real hard to redo that Math2C test with some strategies for taking it, it would have reflected her true ability. It is crazy but that is why I am not that into these tests as indicators for a kid's ability to tackle college. I am one that believes that the GPA and other achievements show more than a test like the SAT shows. I realize the reason for the SAT (puts everyone in the country in the same context since they attend different schools) but I truly think the rest of the academic profile is way more indicative of readiness for admission to a college than any test like the SAT shows. But we have to play the game, if you will, and so if the SAT is not in keeping with the child's academic profile, in cases like your D's and mine, in part due to not finishing the test in time, then it is worth a little extra work or tutoring to figure out how to take this test because colleges count on it more than we might like. It is not imperative to have scores through the roof but just that the score be over a certain level or within keeping of the rest of the child's academic profile. </p>
<p>My younger kid just always seemed to finish the SAT on time and in fact, likely does her homework quicker too. She had no tutoring for the SATs. I would say her older sister is more gifted in math than she is (though she is a high math achiever despite hating math and is accelerated as much as her sister was in this subject), but this second child just was able to finish the test on time. She only took the SATs twice, both in spring but in her case, in April and May of tenth grade and she opted to graduate high school a year early. Her combined final SAT score was very close to her older sister who took it in 11th grade. Both are gifted types but the younger one just must work quicker on these tests. I think she also must read quicker and gets through that part of the test quicker than her older sister or than I ever did at that age. So, it is really not about intelligence or capability in college level work but ya almost have to learn how to conquer the SAT by using strategies to do the questions in the allotted time. </p>
<p>I don't know your D but since everything else you said is so close to what I mentioned my older D is like, I think your D MIGHT be able to raise the score through practce and by working with someone who might teach her ways of getting the questions done on time. That is if she wants to take it again. </p>
<p>I know you were not asking for an extension of time on the SATs....and I truly believe this should be reserved for kids with true disabilities and from the way you describe your D, I really don't think she has one but it is just that she may work methodically or slowly or with her gifted mind and just has to learn how to take this test, like my D did. I think she has a chance of improving the score with this work (particularly a few sessions with someone who can point out these strategies, plus several proctored timed situations). I'd only have her do this if she wants to do it because she wants her scores to be in the same ballpark as the rest of her wonderful academic achievements. </p>
<p>Best to you...
Susan</p>
<p>A few disclaimers (being a lawyer, such things come naturallY).</p>
<p>I am not now, nor have I ever been, a psychologist, neuropsychologist, official or unofficial educator, or anyone specializing in the issues discussed here. I also am not an SAT coach or in any way in that line of work.</p>
<p>In addition, I do not know anything about Birdie, her D, or anyone else posting here, or their Ds, Ss, Hs, or other relatives or friends who have been mentioned or who have been in the back of the mind of any poster.</p>
<p>However, I have had a lot of experience with timed tests, having taken many in my time, and helped a few friends with theirs.</p>
<p>Comments of Ohio_mom and TheDad, among others, about test anxiety, are quite familiar to me. In some cases stress building up before a test can cause physical discomfort, even pain, to the person taking the test, so as to make it more difficult to score well, or even pass, than it should be, give the test-taker's general intelligence and knowledge of the subject. One of my friends took a test several times and did not pass despite knowing the material, for that reason. She only passed when she was weakened from the flu and was unable to become sufficiently tense so as to impede her functioning (I don't recommend this as a test-taking technique).</p>
<p>It might even be the case with Birdie's D - I have no idea. But if that's a possibility there are a number of techniques to cope with that (I developed some for myself) that are not difficult to learn, and that can be adjusted to meet the individual's personality.</p>
<p>Just my $0.025 (2 cents adjusted for inflation).</p>
<p>soozievt ....Thanks for your post. I sincerely believe the focus needs to be learning how to "beat the clock". </p>
<p>dadofsam ....My d and I would be open to any suggestions that you may have to cope with test anxiety. I look forward to what you have to share.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Were you having anxiety about calling it test anxiety?? :) (Just kidding!!) What dadofsam is eloquently describing is something called anticipatory anxiety. There are a lot of relaxation strategies to manage anxiety. Thre is a great book,"The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook", by Bourne, that has a lot of strategies and explanations in it. It will also have a lot of information that is not likely to be relevant for your daughter, as it addresses the management of Panic Disorder and a lot of other forms of anxiety (generalized anxiety, fears and phobias, etc). However, it has decriptions of several relaxation techniques, and explains the kind of negative thinking you can fall into. It has a nice section on the 4 personality traits that tend to foster anxiety, the perfectionist being one of them. I believe the book is in it's 4th edition. Big, softcover book with a mint green cover-- usually in the Psychology or Self Help section of the bookstores. This publisher also puts out a few other books on relaxation and stress management, but I like this one the best-- its really like a cookbook--- gives you the recipes for what to do. Hope this helps.</p>
<p>I may be mistaken as I did not read every post, but I thought Birdie was saying that she did not notice any test anxiety so much before the test. Her D sounds so much like mine. She never was anxious about the test either and I don't think that was a cause of not finishing all the questions in the time period. I truly think she had to get strategies of how to take THIS test and how to work in the time period. Someone mentioned overthinking the questions...that could be it. Or not knowing when to move on and skip a question. I am not up on the specifics but I really think that by working with a tutor to develop strategies for THIS particular test (which is not like their other schoolwork or tests) can really help. As already shared, by doing that and by taking a half dozen practice tests under proctored timed conditions, she was able to learn to finish the questions on time. Some people work slower and more meticulously or whatever. So, I think there are ways to improve this with the SAT with a little help and practice. I'm not sure this was about anxiety that much. If I'm wrong, sorry. Birdie's D just sounds like mine when it came to this and with how strong a student she is otherwise and on previous standardized testing. I also think that D takes longer to do her homework than my other D. Part might be due to making it the very best she can (thus the grades she gets) and part just may be her style of working. That works fine for homework but is tricky when it comes to timed things like SATs! Thus the need to develop a strategy to take THIS test. Just my experience. (and it worked for my child)</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Momrath: I had to laugh about the index finger question! I'm no genius, but long ago when I was being helped with phonics by my mom, she waggled her forefinger at me & asked "what's this?" wanting me to respond "finger", but I replied, "come here."
Don't think I was gifted...just very obedient!</p>
<p>Other funny stories from kindergarten level about various siblings: someone brought home only crayon pictures and never any painted drawings & mom thought, oh no, he's shy & quiet and everyone else runs to the easel first & he never gets a chance to paint! But when she gently asked him, "honey, why don't you ever bring any painted drawings home," he responded, "cause anyone who paints has to clean up all the brushes & put all the paints away." Very practical person, my brother.</p>
<p>A neice once gave her parents an all black, heavily crayoned drawing & when she was asked what it was replied, "that's what it looks like in deep space." However, she is also the kid who when the preschool teacher asked for signs of spring, responded.."Yield." LOL</p>
<p>I also disclaim any professional knowledge about test anxiety or any other similarly named topic and also have no real knowledge whatever of Birdie's D. However, from an amateur's point of view, seems to me that there could be at least two factors.</p>
<ol>
<li> General nervousness/anxiety/adrenaline rush at or before the beginning of the test. This was where I figured out a few things for myself. Some were what I later learned were standard recommendations: take means to avoid feeling rushed at the beginning of the test - get there early, not at the last moment, don't bring a book to look up things at the last minute, etc.</li>
</ol>
<p>My personal techniques, revealed here for the first time publicly: Differentiate myself from the other test-takers. </p>
<p>The minute the starting bell rings, everyone around me grabs the test booklet and starts frantically reading the first question.</p>
<p>I start cleaning my glasses. Then I check my pens and pencils. Everyone around me looks at me as if I am crazy. Don't I know that this is the ___ exam!!! A matter of life and death??? No matter. In the course of a several-hour test, I can spare 20 or 30 seconds to do that, to avoid a panic LeMans-type start. Then I get to work. Every once in a while I pick up my head from the papers to look around and observe how nervous or frantic everyone else looks. Most do look that way. Maybe I do, too - who knows? Then back to work.</p>
<p>The other possibility that occurred to me is that test anxiety could turn up not at the beginning of the test but near the end, especially if Birdie's D often is given a little extra time to finish by teachers but won't be in this particular test. Other posters have already just suggested things, so I'll stop here.</p>
<p>On a lighter note, Some of the posters have mentioned over-analyzing an answer. My son was on Academic Challenge (televised series in Cleveland, OH) last year. The first round was made up of ridiculous, easy questions about plants (i.e., leaves of three let them be...). My son's team just sat there with blank looks on their faces. When we asked the team later about the first round they all said that they just couldn't believe they were asking for such simple answers! I guess in their regular games they never have such easy questions. They did go on to win the game, but it was quite amusing. Good luck Birdie!</p>