Give me a direction

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hey, I just have a few questions that I am sure this messageboard will be able to help me out with. Basically, I would like some recommendations on the particular law schools that I should apply to. In general, I wish to study in large city (boston, nyc, chicage, etc) and public vs. private is not a huge issue. Additionally, I'd like to attend a school with great prestige.</p>

<p>stats: 3.65 gpa, Cornell University - Operations Research & Industrial Engineering
LSAT: 170</p>

<ul>
<li>the gpa factors in fresh, soph, and junior year grades. If it means anything, senior year classes will not be too difficult so I could wait to apply with better marks if that is necessary. Additionally, I'd like to deal with Intellectual Property Law.</li>
</ul>

<p>Recommendations on schools that I should consider applying too will be greatly appreciated.</p>

2

<p>Boston: Harvard and BC for the prestigous schools. Franklin Pierce in NH is great for IP, but is ranked in the third tier.</p>

<p>NYC: Columbia, Columbia, Columbia. It has a solid IP programme. NYU is also great. Fordham is a good match/safety for you. Cardozo is ranked quite highly for IP; that and Brooklyn, maybe Hofstra, would be good safeties.</p>

<p>Chicago: Northwestern will look favourably on your LSAT but you would have a rough go of it getting in without work experience. UChicago is also great. Loyola, I believe, is good.</p>

<p>DC: Georgetown, George Washington, George Mason (if it doesn't have George in the name, don't apply ;) ), American (which has both an IP journal and an IP clinic).</p>

<p>Best thing to do: buy a copy of USNews graduate edition, which ranks the law schools. Go to LSAC.org, go to the toolbar on the left, and find the Guide to ABA law schools. Do a geographic search (New England, Northeast, and Midwest), and use the USNews to figure out which ones are ranked well. Don't fret too much about exact rank - it's really not important.</p>

3

<p>With your numbers, you should have no trouble getting into a top-10 (or "top 14") school, and there's really no reason to look beyond those programs, unless you'll looking for a significant scholarship. </p>

<p>Any of the top 10 programs will give you signficant national opportunities in most large cities. Going to a good regional school is more of a risk, so I wouldn't go that route unless you really have an aversion to initial debt. </p>

<p>Apply everywhere in the top 14 where you wouldn't mind studying, so you have more guaranteed options. Then, visit the schools. If all else is equal, go to the program with the best rep and placement in your most desired market.</p>

4

<p>I'm a little confused as to what year you are..</p>

<p>In any event, I agree with Cardozo that your numbers give you a "shot" at every law school. I'd urge you to get to know two profs well enough to get good letters of recommendations from them, if you haven't done that already. </p>

<p>I'd also suggest that, assuming you are planning to apply next fall, you spend a lot of time this summer on your personal statement. Again, it matters ..and the higher up on the totem pole a law school is, the more it seems to matter.</p>

5

<p>Slight disagreement, mostly agreement, with Cardozo. Your numbers are great (esp. with Cornell in there), so there's little reason to look outside of the top 14. </p>

<p>However, I would suggest applying to two schools outside of the top 14, because law school admissions has really changed in the past few years. First of all, there are never any guarantees with law school admissions. Second, they can be erratic - I was accepted to a top 20 and waitlisted at second-tier schools. Third - most importantly - law school admissions are rolling. While getting your apps in ahead of time will be immensely helpful (think October at the latest), you might not hear any acceptances for a few months. If you apply to a top 25/30 school (like GW or BC), you'll probably get your acceptance letter quickly, which is just a huge relief. Trust me - it'll be worth the extra $150 to have that peace of mind. You'll be in at a great school, and everything else will just be icing on the cake. OTOH, waiting several months without an acceptance letter is rough - trust me, I've been there. If I had to do it all over again, I would have applied to one or two slam-dunk (well, as close to that as you can get in law school admissions) schools, just to have an acceptance letter in hand. </p>

<p>Cannot stress enough: get those apps in early! Think mailed by October. Also, try for non-binding early decision if you can get it. Finally, just general law school admissions advice: apply to those one or two sure-shot schools (in cities that you would really like to live/work in - think just below that top tier) and about five or six others. Go to NALP.org and search for IP firms in the areas you would like to work (look for this as if you were looking for employment - just do, for example, chicago, il and IP). Many of the firms list the schools which they interview at - and use that as a good starting point.</p>

6

<p>Don't forget Stanford and Boalt in the San Francisco Bay area. Stanford'a a consensus top 3 school, and Boalt's IP offerings are rated particularly high.</p>

7

<p>Cornell: I take your statement that you would like to enter the field of intellectuial property as meaning that you would like to practice patent law. You should check whether your degree and/or coursework will qualify you for the USPTO Patent Agents' examination. Typically a degree in Industrial Engineering qualifies, but your degree seems to be some sort of hybrid. Check on uspto.gov under patent agents-registration-requirements bulletin.</p>

8

<p>Definitely Stanford and Boalt for top IP. (Most of the cutting-edge IP/Tech work is going on in the Bay Area / Silicon Valley, of course.) </p>

<p>(I'll always consider Boalt a Top-10 school, whatever USNews says.)</p>

9

<p>Anyone have personal insight into actually getting admitted to Stanford and Boalt? I am mainly curious because I see that they have an interesting range of statistics (as listed on the princeton review website).
Stanford: 3.80 avg. gpa, which is intimidating to me yet
3.20 - 4.00 for 25%-75%, which puts me in the hunt.
168 LSAT (166-171)
Berkeley: 3.75 gpa; one again, ouch
3.60-3.90
164 LSAT (161-168)</p>

<p>Is it safe to say that Berkeley relies much more on gpa?? Additionally, is it safe to say that Stanford relies much more on LSAT's?? I am quite curious because I also read that the two schools have extremely low acceptance rates (8% & 10% st vs. bk) yet they both seem very possible to gain admission into. Is either school placing greater emphasis on extracurriculars, interviews, or rec. letters, for example?</p>

<p>Additionally, does my OR&IE major from a relatively well respected engineering program give me any advantage when applying to these schools (assuming IP is my focus)? Furthermore, does my gpa get weighted during admissions because I attend a competitive school?
I just get slightly frustrated knowing that I may have been able to pump out an easy 4.0 back at a school at home, in a less rigorous curriculum and environment, and might have been a stronger applicant that I am now.</p>

10

<p>The general consensus about scores and grades at/below the 25th percentile seems to be that most students who get in at that level are probably URM's. Under that reasoning, a standard applicant who applied to Stanford with a 3.2 (?) / 166 would probably have a hard time getting in. Usually, you'll want to have at least one number at or above the median to have good chances of admisison. </p>

<p>However, this isn't always the case. For one thing, the California system has outlawed affirmative action. Instead, as noted, Boalt is now looking at a wider LSAT range, as well as economic obstacles and hardships. If you have these in you background, it may help you in admissions. Boalt is also, as you noted, now weighing GPA more heavily than most other top schools. </p>

<p>Stanford is an interesting case because it is actually less LSAT-fixated than peer schools like Yale and Harvard. (I believe their LSAT range is comparable to schools like Georgetown, ranked significantly lower.) However, Stanford is also much more focused on work experience than other top programs. </p>

<p>Both schools probably look heavily at other "extras" as well. They get plenty of applicants with strong numbers, so they probably go beyond them to a large extent. </p>

<p>It's unclear exactly how much your major and undergrad will matter, although it should to some extent. (Cornell apparently has less grade inflation than other ivies, which puts it in an interesting position in the "easy public school vs. grade-inflated ivy" debate.) But I would imagine that studying engineering at Cornell can only help you in this context -- these kinds of schools are not as heavily numbers-based as, say, Harvard or Georgetown, and having a demanding major from a tough school may make all the difference. </p>

<p>All in all, your numbers clearly put you in the running at both Boalt and Stanford, and you should definitely apply to both programs. If you have good recs, etc,, you should have a good shot. Your LSAT is better than most applicants, and your GPA is above the 25th percentile. If you have your heart set on Stanford, you may want to consider getting some work experience first, but you could always apply now and see what happens first. </p>

<p>All in all, you're a very strong candidate to most top schools, and your major will give you a much easier entry into IP law. (Actual engineers are extremely marketable in this area.) So I wouldn't regret the choices you've made -- they seem to have positioned you very well for what you want to do.</p>

11

<p>The Princeton Review data is suspect; the 25th percentile at Stanford is listed elsewhere (the ILRG site) at 3.67, and the 75th at 3.93. Stanford's own site says most of its admitted students were in the top 5% of their college classes.</p>

<p>The 25-75 numbers for Boalt at 3.68 and 3.9. </p>

<p>It does indeed matter where you earned that GPA. Yours puts you in the running even at Yale and Stanford, but there are of course no guarantees for anyone.</p>

<p>If you were to apply to all of the top fourteen, and I were a gambling man, I'd give you 3 to 1 odds at getting into at least ten of them, even odds at getting into twelve of them, and one in three odds of getting into all of them. </p>

<p>Sure, there are a few people with 4.0's from top schools and 180's on their LSAT's. But few of them are any good at bowling, and some of them look positively ridiculous on the dance floor.</p>

12

<p>I appreciate the quick replies Cardozo and Greybeard. BTW, I actually took bowling here at Cornell and have a high game of 235 (not bad for coming in as a 90 avg player); I am also lethal on a dance floor. hehe</p>

<p>One last thing, off the top of my head. Do these types of competitive schools factor in a "bad semester" at all? Basically, I had one semester which I unknowlingly came down with mono. I had to drop to 14 credits (3 as pass/fail) and my gpa for that semester was a 2.4. ouch.</p>

<p>Even with that bad semester I am at a 3.65. Without that semester, at 84 credits by the end of this semester I would have about a 3.84.</p>

13

<p>You should address the bad semseter in an addendum. The fact you still did well overall helps clarify that you're not just some whiny Susan. </p>

<p>Greybeard, I thought that info was a little off. Good work on the update. </p>

<p>My guess is that the OP has a decent shot at getting into one of the top three, and should probably get in pretty much everywhere else, presuming he doesn't drool on his application.</p>

14

<p>I appreciate all of the help thus far. I have an additional question for those of you helping me out.</p>

<p>A good buddy of mine here at CU is sophomore transfer. He had nearly 60 credits at a community college and earned a 4.0. How well does that effect the gpa that law school admissions will look at? Let's say, hypothetically that he earns a 3.3 here at cornell, in addition to his previous coursework.</p>

<p>Secondly, if the transfer credit grades do count another question arises. If someone is doing well at their current undergrad college, will it be beneficial for him/her to take community college courses back at home (during break for example) knowing that he will probably receive A's in these courses. Let's say this person takes maybe 16 credits and receives A's. Is it worth taking these courses (assuming the cost is not an issue) just to have the additional grades on a transcript? Or will the students performance be based primarily on the performance at the his/her undergrad university?</p>

<p>I figured it may be an interesting way to boost one's chance for admission.</p>

15

<p>They'll look at all the grades on your friend's transcript. I'd guess that his grades at Cornell will be viewed as a better indicator future performance in law school than his community college grades, but by getting a 4.0 at the community, he'll be helping himself wih his grades as it is possible to do at a community college.</p>

<p>A student at a four-year school who augments his/her university coursework with some community college courses will still be primarily evaluated on his/her grades at the four-year school.</p>

<p>I've never been on a law school admissions commitee, but if I were, I'd probably look at a high GPA from a community college the way a baseball scout would look at a prospect with a high batting average in the double A baseball. You don't know for sure whether he can hit major league pitching until you call him up.</p>

16

<p>My 2 cents...</p>

<p>For IP Law, I would always recommend Stanford and Cal above all others. </p>

<p>Next, Duke, NYU and Columbia.</p>

<p>Georgetown would be my last choice.</p>

<p>Your 3.65 GPA is going to be respected because it comes from Cornell and you have a strong LSAT. Stanford and Cal are going to be difficult, but I like your chances at Duke and Georgetown.</p>

<p>So, in order of preference:</p>

<h1>1 Stanford University</h1>

<h1>2 University of California-Berkeley (Boalt)</h1>

<h1>3 Columbia University</h1>

<h1>4 New York University</h1>

<h1>5 Duke University</h1>

<h1>6 Georgetown University</h1>

<p>As for backups, George Washington would be a great choice. They are supposed to be very robust in IP. Boston University is also supposed to be strong in IP.</p>

<p>Traditionally, I would recommend Chicago, Harvard, Yale and Michigan...but those are not that strong in IP.</p>

17

<p>Hey, Alexandre. </p>

<p>Usually I agree with your posts. </p>

<p>However, even if, say, Duke has a better IP program than Harvard or Chicago, wouldn't the OP still be better served going to the school with better overall reputation/placement? </p>

<p>This is what I've generally heard with regard to specialization rankings. </p>

<p>In other words, when choosing between comparable schools (Stanford and Harvard, or Boalt and Virginia, or BU/GW and Fordham) it obviously makes sense to choose the school with the best IP program. In that case, you would choose Stanford over Harvard, Boalt over UVa, and BU/GW over Fordham. </p>

<p>However, if your choice was between Harvard and Duke, or Harvard and Gtown, or Harvard and GW, then it would seem to make more sense to simply go with Harvard, since your overall placement chances will probably be so much better.</p>

18

<p>Just my two cents.</p>

<p>I recently talked to a counselor here who works with admissions for Cornell Law. I informed her about my interest in IP. Her general recommendation was plain and simple - if I were to get into Harvard/Yale or any other highly respected law school, then take it. She recommended that it is better to attend a highly renowned quality law school (top 5), that doesnt necessarily have the top IP program rather than attending the top IP program (maybe ranked 9-14) over a higher ranked law program (btw this assumes that we are dealing with top tier law schools). The truth of the matter for me, however, is that I will be ecstatic if I have the opportunity to attend any of the top law schools listed in this thread thus far.</p>

<p>On a side not: I respect this counselors advice, but am neither arguing against or in favor of Cardozo or Alexandre. I think you both have valid perspectives.</p>

19

<p>Cardozo, I agree with you. I was merely listing Law schools according to the IP speciality. Still, I would probably still recommend Cal over Harvard...and certainly Stanford if the OP's intent is to go into IP Law. But in Law, the quality of the specializations is actually not that important. I never meant for GW to be a primary choice. But it is a good backup. Obviously, if he got into a Harvard or Stanford, forgetaboutit! The thing is, he isn't going to apply to more than 8 Law schools, so applying to Harvard may be a waste of effort and time...when Stanford, Cal and Columbia are more appropriate choices and just as good overall. I recommend Stanford, Cal and Columbia as his "reaches".</p>

20

<p>GW is better in law than BU.</p>