<p>When I think about what God is, I always come back to the question of what life is. There is a whole universe around us, made of a countless number of atoms and particles, yet for some reason these atoms formed together to make life on Earth and possibly other planets that we have not yet discovered. Now, life must be a good thing, or it wouldn't have formed at all. Also, if it weren't a good thing, then why would life struggle so hard to hold on to life and to create new life?<br>
So, if life is a good thing, then the question is, why is it a good thing? There must be a reason. I am not sure I know what that reason is. Perhaps it is because when there is life, there can be learning. If this is the case, then there must be something we are supposed to learn. If God exists, and if He is the creator of life, He would have known the reason for creating life. Perhaps life exists to learn for ourselves about things that cannot be learned without life. I don't know.
It just seems illogical that life and thought and emotions and feelings could have all been created from a big boom in the sky that happened many, many, many years ago. Somehow, life was formed, and I believe that it was formed by a God who is fundamentally different than us. If he were the same as us, he would have the same limitations as us.
Oh well, I'm beginning to ramble and not make sense. I better stop this post now.</p>
<p>I consider myself fairly intelligent and I belive in God. Faith is believing in things that cannot be proved. Being a Christian is a very important part of my life and I belive because there is no way that this would could continue to exisit without God. The idea of pre-destiney to me means that we are presented with choices and God already knows what we will choose. I believe that bad things still happen in this world they serve a purpose. If your aunt died in a car crash caused by a drunk driver you learn two things don't drive drunk and always wear a seatbelt. Every experience leads to some point in your life where that moment will be relevant.</p>
<p>millie05, I hope I'm not being offensive, but what could one learn from the recent tsunami? Don't live near the water? What can we learn from the Holocaust? There are far too many indescribably horrible things in this world, some caused by humans and some not, for me to consider the idea of an omnipotent, benevolent supreme being even remotely plausible.</p>
<p>Well the well-renowned poet John Donne, a devout Christian (i think Anglican to be more specific), wrote poetry on both sides of the spectrum. In some of his poems Donne believes that God is indeed benevolent. However, in others (predominantly his love poems that don't turn out the way he wanted), Donne wonders if God is benevolent at all or if He just likes to torture people to know end. So even the strictest Christian can ponder about that exact subject.</p>
<p>I gues it would be that despite the horrible things that can and will happen in this world there are still good people who are willing to help others. I think this means that we are to learn to reach out and support our fellow citizens of the world</p>
<p>Perhaps I can shed some light on the matter.</p>
<p>Why do bad things happen? Tsunamis and Holocausts and such? Well, why do good things happen? Why does love happen?</p>
<p>All too often we take for granted the fact that we are extraordinarily blessed. Somehow we feel that we deserve all those good things, and that if bad things happen, God should be blamed for not protecting us and making our lives perfect. We all fall into that trap. The mindset we should have is: I am just one of over 6 billion people on this planet, and in no way am I one of the more morally upstanding people, intelligent people, or anything extraordinary. So why does such a powerful God even bother gifting you with talent, health, and a computer for you to go onto CC.com? That's what people call "grace". </p>
<p>When God allows bad things to happen, perhaps it's just an attempt to get us to realize how small we really are, and how there are so many things in this marvelous universe that are simply beyond our control or even our comprehension. It's up to us to realize that, or to simply ignore it and continue wandering around in our self-indulgent haze and shuffle around in quiet desperation. This definitely isn't the conclusive answer, but I hope that it will help people to realize that the mere fact that evil and bad things exist isn't logically enough to believe in the nonexistence of God.</p>
<p>John Donne is a fantastic writer, and I love his works to death, but I would be a litle wary of citing his works in a theological discussion. Have you read "The Flea"? :-P</p>
<p>To whomever it was who spoke of unanswered prayers. You did get an answer you got either a "no" or a "not yet". Praying is different than wishing.</p>
<p>nomir, what you're presenting is the argument from evil... but there is a problem with that argument. The premise and conclusion that the entire argument hinges on is that if there is an all-powerful and all-good being (i.e. god), that being would want to stop evil and would have the power to do so. Since there is obviously evil in the world, there can be no such being.</p>
<p>The problem is that evil is the logical consequent of good, and god did not create and cannot control logic. The world is better off with both good and evil than it would be with neither. Also, second order goods (sympathy, forgiveness, etc.) also logically require evil. (how could you have sympathy for someone if no evil existed in the first place?)
Now, of course there is an argument against this response, but if I told you that, it would kinda hurt my position here :) See if you can figure out what the problem is with the greater good argument against the problem of evil.</p>
<p>But my point is that evil does not necessarily disprove the existance of god. The fact is, it is impossible to prove the existance of god - similarly, it is impossible to prove the non-existance of god.</p>
<p>everyone on this board should watch "Bruce Almighty." There's God for ya...and thats the way the cookie crumbles</p>
<p>^^ Huh?</p>
<p>what do you mean, asianboy?</p>
<p>
[quote]
everyone on this board should watch "Bruce Almighty." There's God for ya...and thats the way the cookie crumbles
[/quote]
</p>
<p>LOL!!!!!</p>
<p>(this more than 10 character thing is getting irritating :p)</p>
<p>"God seems illogical" </p>
<p>For something to be illogical one must understand it to recognize its fallacies, or imperfections. I do not understand God nor the way God works, so I can't say God is illogical. That's the way I see it. </p>
<p>To me, God is omnipotent. God is beyond human understanding. (2)</p>
<p>I cannot sit near my computer and argue on behalf of God nor can I argue against God. My understanding is too limited to do so.</p>
<p>If God was beyond human understanding, we wouldn't even be able to conceive of the idea of "god", which is obviously not the case.</p>
<p>True, Icarus. But, look at how much we struggle to define God. Sure, we are able to grasp a vague idea of "god." But, that is still a VAGUE idea that leaves many if not all of us bewildered.</p>
<p>julians: although i am an atheist, i really don't think you should discuss religion like that by questioning God. some people may really get offended</p>
<p>I like option (2).</p>
<p>Thank you, millie and pookdogg. I couldn't have said it better.</p>
<p>Frankly, I'm rather tired of having religious debates with intelligent people. I've done enough of that. :p It was perceptive to notice that the so-called smart people tend to question God more, but I think that's natural. Once you reach a certain level of logical reasoning, you should begin to question the beliefs you've always held or the things people have told you. Then you can reason your beliefs out for yourself, and everything you believe thereafter you will have reason to believe. I think that all devout Christians have questioned God at some time or another. I was raised in a very strong Christian family, and I know I have, but each time I came back to the belief and the faith that God does exist and that he has reason for everything that he does and everything that happens, whether or not we understand his reasoning. I think that God is very logical, but his logic must far exceed our own. That doesn't make him illogical. What some doubting intelligent people fail to realize is that they cannot outsmart an omnipotent being such as God. Just because they do not comprehend what and how God is does not mean he is not real.</p>
<p>As for proof that God exists, I see it in the endless miracles that only God could perform that occur on a daily basis. I've seen people healed of infirmities on the spot when prayed over. I see it the prophets who are given information about other people from God; they literally know things they should have no way of knowing. I even simply see it in the people who have changed their lives for the better once developing a relationship with God, and in my answered prayers. This may not prove anything to you guys, but whether or not you believe in God or in Jesus as man's savior, the messages preached by Jesus and the Bible are, in my opinion, worth following regardless of one's beliefs. If people showed the kind of love Jesus did and Jesus taught about, the world would not be in the chaos it faces today.</p>
<p>"The problem is that evil is the logical consequent of good, and god did not create and cannot control logic. The world is better off with both good and evil than it would be with neither. Also, second order goods (sympathy, forgiveness, etc.) also logically require evil. (how could you have sympathy for someone if no evil existed in the first place?)" -Icarus</p>
<p>I agree that without the necessary contrast, one cannot define a thing like 'good.' However, the proportion of 'good' to 'evil' in the world seem to have little to do with that. I can love my parents even though I've never had worse parents or no parents at all. My parents certainly don't need to die for me to appreciate them. If the Judeo-Chrisitan God (the concept of 'god' in general is really too broad to discuss) wants people to have free will, then both 'good' and 'evil' must exist. However, to bring back my example, the tsunami has little to do with evil as a choice. It is a random event, in which a random selection of people died. I still feel that there is no valuable lesson to be learned from such a thing.</p>
<p>"But my point is that evil does not necessarily disprove the existance of god. The fact is, it is impossible to prove the existance of god - similarly, it is impossible to prove the non-existance of god."</p>
<p>I think that the main reason for this is that it is so hard to define 'god." :) When I think of the concept of god, I refere to the Judeo-Christian conception of him/her/it. Of course, there are other such conceptions, and it is of course possible that a 'god' exists that is not omnipotent, omniscient, and/or benevolent.</p>
<p>"Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic."
-Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy</p>
<p>some people may really get offended</p>
<p>So?? People are too easily offended these days, good grief... get over it</p>
<p>think about it...we humans are so limited....who are WE to say that "we know God does not exist' or "it's science" or "there is no proof" -- how dare people are so conclusive when they don't even know how the universe came about, but have a mere <em>assumption</em> for it, which has not even been backed by hard, solid evidence....</p>
<p>GOD MAY SEEM ILLOGICAL BECAUSE HE IN FACT MAY WANT TO PRESENT HIMSELF AS "ILLOGICAL", AND INSTEAD WISHes TO TEST YOUR HEART INSTEAD OF YOUR BRAIN WHEN THINKING ABOUT HIM..</p>
<pre><code> did that ever occur to you
</code></pre>
<p>to tell you the truth, if God was able to speak to us ({to the world) for just once to prove that he's here......it would seriously KILL HIS IMAGE...........meaning he wouldn't be special/mysterious anymore, and faith would not be needed...........</p>
<p>this is where science/physics/nature are replaced with the power of faith</p>
<p>for faith is the strongest power of all</p>