Hi all,
I need some advice. I got accepted to two tier 4 schools. I got a 145 on my lsat and 3.01 for my gpa. I really don’t want to wait another year for law school, but a lot of people are telling me it would be worth it. Should I attend the tier 4 school and do my best to get good grades and transfer out?
I don’t expect that you will be able to transfer in to a tier 1 law school with your undergrad academic record and LSAT. Here is what Harvard law looks for in transfer applicants as one example. https://hls.harvard.edu/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/standards-for-admission/
If you want to attend law school now your best bet is to enroll at a school where you have been accepted and work to excel there. Consider the employment record of graduates if you choose a law school from your acceptances. You cannot count on a transfer to a tier 1 law school - or any law school for that matter - working out. Assume you will stay at the law school you start at. If you want to throw in a few transfer applicantions that is fine-- but I’d apply more broadly than just to the top tier schools.
If you want to work for a few years before law school, retake the LSAT, and then reapply to a broad range of schools that is another option (there is no guarantee of better results than you already have though).
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do NOT attend a LS with the idea of transferring. 99% of your fellow students plan do to their “best to get good grades”. By definition, only half of them will be above median.
Law school is all about LSAT + undergrad GPA, so at this point the only thing you can do is to prep for teh LSAT and apply early next fall. A higher score is easy tax-free merit money.
btw: the US graduates 2x as many JD’s as the market needs, so make sure that you really want to be a lawyer, as most T4 grads don’t make much money. (You can look up the salaries of your T4 acceptances on Law School Transparancy or the google law school name and ABA 509 report)
Can’t imagine you get into a top law school. Your scores are your scores. You can work, gain experience and re apply but your profile doesn’t say top school.
Btw there are lots of successful lawyers from non top schools and a lot of top school lawyers end up out of the business or unemployed.
Would it be better to go to Harvard than Cal Western. Sure. But does going to Cal Western mean you’ll never have success or wealth or whatever you desire ?
Absolutely not.
This advice does not jive with the statistics on law employment going back to the last recession (so almost 12 years worth of data- half a generation).
OP- the data very strongly suggests that it is not worth the tuition money AND three years of your life to go to a tier four law school. Most of these schools have terrible bar passage rates; they inflate their employment numbers by hiring their own grads for jobs in alumni relations at the law school so it looks like more graduates are working in “the legal field” than is actually true; they have super high debt to earnings ratios and it can take decades to pay back your loans.
As Bluebayou points out- transferring is nearly impossible.
Why do you want to be a lawyer? Let’s start there.
TSBNA- most of the “successful lawyers” from tier four schools graduated from law school in the 1970’s and 1980’s and are getting ready to retire. They were lucky enough to catch some of the class action tobacco lawsuits, asbestos, or similar, or have done well in medical malpractice, the last category of law which is not prestige obsessed.
Lawyers graduating in the 2000’s? Unless you are at the top of your class at a tier 2 or 3 (and I don’t mean the top half… top meaning one of the top 10 students in your class) it has been very tough going for the last twenty years.
I didn’t say it was a good decision.
I said you will find some with success and you will. I noted it’s not optimal - ie Cal Western vs Harvard.
But you can not definitively say a law degree from a Cal Western or Hofstra or u of Toledo cannot possibly lead to success.
If OP dreams of being an attorney, who are we to stop them ? And these schools will produce successes -maybe lesser firms or public servants but lawyers nonetheless (some).
Thanks
Here’s an example
How much preparation did you do for the LSAT?
What was your undergraduate major?
How much debt would you need to take on to attend law school (through graduation)?
I would ask the OP what they want to do with a law degree? Do you want to work in a law firm? Be corporate in-house counsel somewhere? What is it that a law degree would provide?
After answering that, how likely is it that you’re going to find “that job” when you’re done with school? If you look at the outcomes of the Toledo link above…less than half of the class works in a law firm, and the vast majority of the ones that do work in firms under 10 people in size. Those aren’t the firms you see in the movies, and the salaries are well below what you imagine.
I don’t think 1 year changes much for applications. I would consider working for a few years… at least 2+…up to maybe 5… and then applying. Get a job, and work your ass off. Do well…get promoted…learn a business/industry…and then show up to law schools with the potential to share insights and real-world knowledge that others fresh out of school don’t have.
10 points on the LSAT and a year of doing very little won’t help you at all. If you really want to be a lawyer, decide the type you want to be, and then work your way into law school.
Appreciating that this advice is really broad… if you want to be a corporate lawyer, and would love to work at the local insurance company…take a job in insurance. Learn the business, then apply to law school and include on your applications that you want to work in claims litigation…for life insurance, or property insurance, etc. Details. A focused path.
Nobody knows where they’ll end up, but you have to pick a destination and start moving with purpose in that direction.
I see that this is an old thread, but for the benefit of other readers, @blossom is right that students in this situation should tread with caution.
There are some students who can make a wise decision to go to a low-ranked law school, but that depends on the cost, career goals, etc. CUNY Law has incredibly low tuition and a great track record of launching students who want to do public interest work in NYC. If you want to be a prosecutor in South Dakota, the University of South Dakota Law may be an excellent choice. If you get a full ride at a 4th tier private school, that may bring the cost-benefit analysis into a very different space. If there’s a job waiting for you at your uncle’s divorce law practice and you just need a law license, then where you go to law school may be almost irrelevant.
Most students, though, don’t have that kind of plan and are risking their futures when they take on debt to go to a low-ranked law school.
You’re in. Just excel in the school you’re at and pass the bar exam.
That’s a really broad statement – I have to say I’ve known many lawyers who graduated in Tier 2/3 and weren’t top 10 in class who’ve made solid livings as lawyers…I know that’s anecdotal! But Tier 1 or bust (essentially) seem really restrictive. Is that def how things are, all over?
Here is a comparison of job outcomes of graduates for those two law schools:
My D is still interested in law school (she’s an undergrad junior) - and this is all scary! She does plan a gap year to work (and study for LSAT)…
Go into the law with your eyes wide open.
There are lawyers in their 40’s (so out of law school 12 years) who are STILL working the document review jobs (generally an hourly rate, zero benefits) they got after taking the bar “just to support myself” while I look for a fulltime role with a good firm. There are lawyers participating in the “race to the bottom” who are finding that clients come in for a divorce, a will, a real estate transaction having done most of the work already by filling out an online form from one of the apps-- so they need four hours of an attorney’s time, not the 50 or 60 hours it once might have taken.
But a law school whose graduates have a 50% employment rate in jobs requiring a law degree should give everyone pause.
What is a solid living? Making 75K as an immigration lawyer with a small firm? That’s a thing- in major metropolitan, high cost of living areas. Generating 200K as a solo practitioner-- fantastic! But then rent for office space, a part-time receptionist who is also a notary; insurance, utilities, some modest marketing expenses to keep your firms name out there… what are you living on by the time you’re done paying expenses?
I’m not saying don’t go to law school. And I’m not saying tier one or bust. But do your homework. And if the combination of your GPA and LSAT means tier three law schools, do the math on what you’ll pay for your degree and whether or not you’ll get the kind of career you want afterwards.
If Uncle Chip is bringing you into the family firm as long as you pass the bar, disregard my post! And good for you and Uncle Chip.
That’s just scary. Yikes.
My D is not a fan of standardized tests (like LSAT) but I suggested if she studied hard she could be come good at it and do well (I did, years ago tho)…
Im going to be very candid and say that you will probably have a hard time succeeding at a Tier 1 Law School even in the very remote chance you are able to get in.
It is a risky financial prospect to go to a Tier 4 school, particularly if you will be full pay and taking out loans. Even more so if you also have undergraduate loans. You could end up in a very precarious financial position when you graduate. I recommend planning out how much you have to borrow, what your likely monthly loan payment will be, and match that against a $75,000/year salary. Maybe you’ll luck out and make more, but quite a few law students make a lot less than that their first years out of law school even in large urban areas. For most students, this doesn’t make sense financially. There’s also the possibility of not passing the bar exam as well, in which case you are also in very precarious spot. Think through your finances and try to make this a very practical financial decision.
There’s the LSAT and there’s the Bar exam.
It doesn’t matter how you do on the Bar as long as you pass.
It matters very much how you do on the LSAT.
Any young person interested in a legal career has to grapple with the reality of these two standardized tests. The summer after graduating from Law School will be full time Bar prep. As in 8-6, five days a week. There are usually threads on CC extolling the advantages of law school even for someone that doesn’t want to practice law, but they are mostly hogwash. Having a law degree without passing the bar is a luxury for the extremely affluent, or for a successful mid-career professional (a highly regarded journalist for example) who is generally getting someone else to pay their tuition.
I’ve told kids I’ve counseled in real life- who have taken a practice test on the LSAT and scored miserably- either come up with another career path, or figure out an LSAT drill schedule that you can commit to. Everyone thinks “My life story is so exceptional, prestigious law schools will ignore my LSAT score”. Yes, if you grew up in a homeless shelter with an incarcerated parent and have a 4.0 GPA with a rigorous major, there are SOME (not all) law schools that will be modestly forgiving for an LSAT score below their general cut off range.
Thanks for the thoughts, blossom. My D is not a fan of standardized tests, but I know from my own experience that (through review classes and multiple, multiple practice tests under stimulated test conditions) I was able to raise my percentile 10 points. I know everyone’s different but I seems like a good score is do-able. You don’t have to rely on your “natural skill” at the LSAT - you can prepare rigorously…
absolutely. If natural skill gets you the score you need- fantastic. And if it doesn’t- test prep might get you there. The good news is that a diagnostic test (timed, as you note) might show only one area which needs drilling/practice. So it doesn’t need to be a full-on test prep mess. Just to better understand one particular type of question and how to approach it.
If your D is interested in policy (or anything legal adjacent) that does not require bar passage, there are some fantastic grad programs that are quicker, cheaper, and less painful than law school. So if she’s interested in environmental/sustainability- she can explore what those advocacy roles look like (near legal but not requiring that someone be a lawyer). Interested in urban issues- same deal. Back when we were in undergrad, anyone who couldn’t handle blood and guts contemplated law school at some point (and many went). Now-- if you don’t want to practice law, many other interesting careers…