Good Aid or Good School?

College Search & Selection
21

Now that I’m up on my soapbox:

My D16’s qualifications would likely get her admitted to any second-tier school and maybe a few of the first-tier. Ain’t happening, and she knows it and is on board with it.

Spouse and I were both raised decidedly middle-class in a heavily ethnic area, and neither of my parents had graduated college when I was growing up (though they did later in their 40’s). Education was highly valued, but quite honestly back in the late 70’s / early 80’s I don’t think my parents knew how to navigate financial aid outside of a public in-state situation.

One factor, too, for us is that her major of interest needs a university’s critical mass of students, faculty, and access to employers in order to have a thriving program. LAC’s don’t offer it at all. 4 of the schools she plans to apply to are large state publics. One, her safety, is in our own state.

There are two privates, one of which I think is going to fall off the table due to distance and insufficient merit aid, and one which could actually work, but they need to come up with a minimum of $20K merit aid.

She’s already received an “aid estimate” from the latter school based on our filling out their NPC online. It was $19K and she hasn’t even applied yet. I’ll tell you what, I’d resign my job and move up there to work on that campus and have access to that city even if I had to take a job in sanitation or dining hall food service. I’m only partially kidding!

And yes @mom2collegekids we’re going to try to figure a way to get her down to the Bama campus for a visit. That would be a 7th school to apply for. “Lucky 7.” I’m thinking closer to Christmas, or even January, when the weather is crappy here. Yes, that’s it. :slight_smile:

In closing: D has done her job making herself into the admission candidate she is today. Therefore, we’re not going to play THEIR game. We’re going to play OUR game.

22

The other thing I’m not sure people consider when the prestige-appeal of the school choices is what’s driving the bus, is that not every student will do well around students who are appreciably higher-achieving than they. Some will rise to it, others will feel intimidated and withdraw from competition, with their confidence suffering as a result. We have seen it with my D at her highly competitive high school so we have “data.”

I’m sure most people have seen or heard about this week’s New York Times article “Campus Suicide and the Pressure of Perfection” http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/education/edlife/stress-social-media-and-suicide-on-campus.html?_r=0

We’ll be damned if we’re going to put our D, our only child, at risk of this type of situation by having her attend a school that she had to stand on tiptoes and stretch to get admitted to. And then have same school try to bankrupt us for our trouble. How do they sleep at night.

Hey, the view from up here on the soapbox is pretty nice, pretty nice!

23

@TooOld4School,Thanks for the input, I thought this thread was going to be fairly dead. I understand that this is a difficult question. I love history, but I have no idea what I would do as a major. History is basically a major in critical thinking, scholasticism, and argumentation and most jobs are looking for more “practical” majors.

@mom2collegekids, You’ve returned! You seem to always be around to help, thanks for that. Like I had previously mentioned, while I had wanted a major in the humanities, I’ve heard them to be completely useless. I doubt that’s worth pursuing, so I’m at square one for major. Thanks for the Alabama link. I recognized in my second post that my title should read “Great vs. Great”, that these big state schools are not bad options for what they are. I was looking for an entirely different environment.

@ohiovalley16, Private school tuition is often insane, but that’s more or less the story everywhere now. Look at the big-name academic state schools, like Madison. Those LACs know that people will COME to them if qualified, they don’t need to dangle money in front of potential students, so they won’t. I appreciate your feedback, it’s helpful to see someone taking the path I am considering has profited so greatly from it.

Thanks again to all of you.

24

@mom2collegekids for POTUS in 2016!

What? I’m not kidding.

25

Definitely @Kinglok12 , even some of these state flagships like UIUC should just be ashamed of themselves.

I imagine the UC system is no better, but haven’t looked there because it’s GU (as is my alma mater in the desert) and also because I already have enough flat area on my forehead.

26

At the larger schools, look at their honors college. UA has some very good HC programs that actually have quite a substantial number of students in them (for example my civil eng DD is in the STEM MBA program, and there were 300 freshmen in that program last year); also another honors program that is fairly sizable is where students interested in research can get into research their first year - UA may have structured this under departmental honors program, but check the current web site and call HC.

For those that haven’t seen this clip, this is how UA has developed over the past dozen of years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrV8g7kxJps

Don’t beat up on UIUC - the State of IL is having major problems because they have acted more like the federal budgets and have over-spent for years.

Univ of WI had some major donors come through for scholarships etc, announced this summer - they have held tuition down for in-state students, and want to keep the University at Big 10 level while trimming expenses where they can. I am sure OOS scholarships will continue to be very limited there.

Some states are able to have better OOS scholarships than others.

27

@SOSConcern, I don’t think UI-UC gets a bad rap. It’s far and away the most respected state school in Illinois. That being said, they aren’t offering me anything. I’d imagine it’s nearly as bad as Madison for out-of-state students. After you take into account the cost of living in IL, Urbana-Champaign is absurdly expensive. Their financial aid is absurd, they have 30,000 students and give out a couple hundred significant scholarships.

I’d hate to derail this thread, but some of you have suggested I could get a bit of both intellectual environment of more prestigious schools and the frugal nature of state schools in their honors colleges.
Besides UA, do most schools honors colleges significantly change the student experience? If not, which ones would you think would carry UA’s commitment to merit aid and promise of academic prestige? (Of course, the significant aid would have to be reasonably available to 34 ACT, 3.5 GPA students)

Thanks again to all of ya’!

28

Some states have relatively expensive flagship schools for in-state students. For example UIUC was 2014-2015 tuition in-state $15,602, and I heard prior parents/students complain about worn out buildings etc (no reinvestment in facilities).

I was sort of answering another poster on this thread.

Pennsylvania has a high in-state tuition cost for its public schools.

There has be a paradigm change - for example a family could have had nieces/nephews from OOS going to UW-Madison, but their OOS darling didn’t get accepted this year. That happened to a friend’s son who thought it would be almost a sure thing. I warned them.

UA has really made a dedicated effort for their HC. Can’t say what other publics have done so that are more affordable for higher stat OOS kids.

Some students also get caught where they don’t get accepted into their major at said school - for example the same kid that didn’t get into Madison was accepted at VA Tech (also OOS for him) but wasn’t admitted for his desired major.

One has to get enough financial safeties in their major as well as maybe some ‘reach’ schools that may or may not have a financial package that makes it affordable.

29

@Kinglok12 my family has 9 college visits under our collective belt right now, and we plan a 10th and probably an 11th (both are 6 hours away in different directions so it takes planning). That’s not counting 2nd visits to 3 schools when their fall semester/quarter are in session, that we liked in the summer but would like to experience in their natural habitat.

Out of all that incoming information, from an honors standpoint I was most excited by Indiana Bloomington, Kentucky, and Temple.

Now let me temper that by saying some of the other schools we visited (and didn’t visit) may have very fine ones but we didn’t get much exposure, e.g. we didn’t have access to a presentation or sit-down session (Emerson, Northeastern, Western KY), or my D hated the school for other reasons (BU, St. John’s) so it wasn’t worth investigating.

From Web information I’m also impressed with DePaul and Mizzou from an honors standpoint.

Also - and experienced folks on the board can course-correct me if my perceptions are accurate - but I understand Honors COLLEGE, as in what IUB has, is a different tier than Honors PROGRAM. Honors College has its own dean and just sits in a different place in the academic hierarchy. You can have varying degrees of quality and credibility in an Honors Program, from what I’m told, but to be a College represents meeting a higher standard. I’m sure there are shining examples and duds in each category.

If you go on the Web sites of the schools where you believe you can get good merit aid, and deep-dive into the information on their Honors College or Honors Program, you will learn a ton.

30

There are quite a few Honors college that would offer the rigor and prestige you’re looking for, but you’re going to be hard pressed to find one that would offer the merit for an OOS student that UA would offer you IMO .

31

I’d recommend taking a serious look at Miami. It was one of the original “public ivies” back in the 80’s, and if I understand correctly they’ve increased the focus on undergraduates since then. At 15k students, it has respectable breadth and depth of majors and courses. The campus sets a very high standard.

In full disclosure, I’m among their alumni. DD, with a 3.8 & 33 (unweighted, single sitting) is looking at Miami as well.
We’re also liking UAH (solid academics, with absence of football setting it apart from Tuscaloosa), Bradley, and believe it or not, Hanover. We intend to visit Michigan Tech.

32

@50N40W As a STEM nerd, I would consider Huntsville location and absence of football to be nirvana.

Sadly I did not pass along the STEM gene … :frowning:

Sorry if this was discussed elsewhere but what is DD’s intended major?

33

For cheaper LACs, I would recommend looking at Mount Allison in Canada (insane number of Rhodes Scholars for such a small school) and New College of Florida (they send a ton of kids to grad school and seem to have an automatic OOS scholarship that cuts tuition in half).
St. Andrews in Scotland is mid-sized and may be affordable enough for you.

I also second MiamiU as a mid-sized college that emphasizes undergraduate education.

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@ohiovalley16 she’s interested in CS although I’ve heard aero engineering once or twice. I admit I was pretty surprised… “Are you sure?” I wanted to ask, but then I thought about the female engineered I work with and have worked with, and thought " well, why not?"

35

@carolinamom2boys, Yeah, that’s about what I expected. If I’d be paying near full price anyways, I wouldn’t be headed to an Honors College. I was looking into them as lighter financial investments, but I feel I have a decent chance at a couple of LACs that offer the environment I was looking for. I’m hard-pressed to find a school that offers all that Alabama does, but I gotta’ look because Alabama is a great school, but not the environment I was looking for. The problem is all the schools offering me AUTOMATIC, significant scholarships are similar to UA, big, Southern football-central type schools.

@50N40W, Yeah, I haven’t gotten to check out Miami yet, I have an eastward trek planned though. I would hit Oberlin and Miami and circle back. Oberlin sounds like kinda’ what I wanted, intellectual, quasi-rural, with pretty good grad. school and job placement. The cost, while not out-of-reach, is rather…daunting. Should I be able to find a similar environment at Miami-OH, I would not wish to pay out for Oberlin, even if it “fits” better.
As a side note, I thought your name was coordinates, though it’s been a while since I’ve seen a globe, that would put you in the ocean wouldn’t it? XD

@ohiovalley16, It seems that the real advantage of UA is in the alumni, the aid, and the quality of their facilities. Should Huntsville share these qualities, I may look into it too. Maybe the lack of football would encourage a more academic nature in the school. I’ve been researching UNC-Ashville for a similar reason, but it appears NOT to share the same rss/network/etc. of Chapel Hill.

@PurpleTitan, those are interesting suggestions…never heard of a single one!
I’ll have to get to researching these now, thanks!

36

St. Andrews is also seen as one of the top unis in the UK (after Oxbridge) while Mount Allison is acknowledged by pretty much everyone as the top LAC in Canada. Yet neither are very difficult for Americans to get in to. Same for NCF as well, in fact, and if you check out their Wikipedia page, it gives off a very quirky/nerdy/intellectual vibe.

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@Kinglok12 Yeah, it comes from a Kipling story I enjoy.

“WHEN the cabin port-holes are dark and green
Because of the seas outside;
When the ship goes wop (with a wiggle between)
And the steward falls into the soup-tureen,
And the trunks begin to slide;
When Nursey lies on the floor in a heap,
And Mummy tells you to let her sleep,
And you aren’t waked or washed or dressed,
Why, then you will know (if you haven’t guessed)
You’re ‘Fifty North and Forty West!’”

Isn’t it a little early to worry about grad school at the same school if you haven’t worked through a major? It’s fine, just seems premature.
Miami’s campus was once called “the most beautiful campus that ever was” by Robert Frost. You might actually like it.
I’ve never visited Oberlin, so can’t say much about it, and while Bradley seems interesting, it isn’t rural …

But as long as you’re in the neighborhood, Hanover might be worth a web browse or a visit. The merit aid at both of those appears to be decent.

38

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We’re also liking UAH (solid academics, with absence of football setting it apart from Tuscaloosa),


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As someone who lived very close to UAH for several years, I wouldn’t recommend UAH to an OOS student who wanted to have some sort of social life, but didn’t want to either “go greek” or be a member of a team. UAH is still pretty much a commuter/suitcase school and those without a tie to a greek house or team often go home on weekends.

UAH is a very good school, no doubt. But, for someone who wants “the full college experience” (even w/o football…lol), then UAH could be a lonely place. For some, that’s totally cool. I have a BIL would would just study and work, study and work. He’s a loner and that’s fine for him.

As for football…believe it or not, most kids do not attend the UA football games. Many kids happily graduate w/o ever having attended a game. Football is a Saturday event. Its existence has no place in the classroom.

39

I went to grad school in the same U, college and department as my undergrad and nothing bad happened. They were actually thrilled to have me stay, apparently I was something of a “catch.” Only thing I changed was to move off campus.

@mom2collegekids I went to one, count 'em, one football game through my entire undergrad and grad career. And this was a PAC-10 team that won the Rose Bowl when I was a senior. The stadium was behind my dorm and everything. It just was a non-issue for me.

40

After our visit to UAH, I pulled up an online map’s street view. Where we had seen new dorms and a quad the street view showed 1950’s era ranch houses. Where the aerial view showed nothing, we’d seen a new student center and a gym. The physical plant at least is changing quickly. Cannot speak for the culture, but they appear to be doing the right things.

edit: I just looked at Bing’s bird’s eye view and G-Maps’ aerial view. Both are out of date and only one or two years old. Again, I don’t know how that would affect the feel of the place.