<p>PE, Music, Art, Community Service, Counseling, Health, assembly meetings, Joga-throns, Drug prevention, Communications, Media labs, Electives, … the list could go on and on …</p>
<p>This is the list of things I would drop, if “education is objective of HS”. IMHO. </p>
<p>^^^^^This is why you don’t understand the full picture of elite admissions. After being on here (CC) 12+ years there are many things that can be learned if you LISTEN and realize many of the posters on here actually know what they are talking about.</p>
<p>My younger son applied and was admitted to 32 of 34 schools. he was waitlisted at the last two. He had EA acceptances to MIT, CalTech, and others only EA schools. He was accepted RD to Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Rice, Swat, Amherst, Duke, UNC, add in 25+ more schools. He was awarded merit and need-based scholies.</p>
<p>The answer you are looking for: not just academics, but leadership, sports, community service, research. Not one thing but an amalgamation of all of it with the academics as a base line. Son had 17 APs, college classes in STEM, research at Duke and UNC med schools, 3 season 4 year varsity athlete and captain, MVP, ran the schools tutoring program and wrote a letter to his great-grandmother every week (he made the time).</p>
<p>Summer practices for his sport and summer classes at the college and summer programs.</p>
<p>I too am the mother of 5, and we LEFT CA for all the reasons you have stated about the problems you are having and then all those looking forward.</p>
<p>We as a family learned what it took to achieve and did it. No complaining, no whining just did what it took.</p>
<p>The system is what it is, I suggest you listen to those of us who have been through it and came out with the “winning” tickets.</p>
<p>Son graduated p’ton with an ECON major (not STEM) applied to med school and had numerous acceptances including HMS. So on the other thread regarding med school, we just did this. B-school as well, all with full tuition scholie, for med school and b-school.</p>
<p>The real key is “to whom much is given, much is expected.” Once you truly understand this you will be able really advise and guide your daughter. Tweaking GPAs isn’t the answer. It is raising a child into a strong, confident and independent adult who figures out what she wants. </p>
<p>Your job is to help her unfold, not mold. She is still in 9th grade, not too early for this site but to early for you to say she will major in STEM. That is too early.</p>
<p>Enjoy the wisdom and friendship here, it helped my family beyond our wildest dreams and then some.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>@katwkittens,</p>
<p>Congratulations to your son!</p>
<p>As an experienced parent, do YOU know how GPA is calculated by top colleges? Why isn’t it a public information? </p>
<p>@californiaaa We know a lot about how Ivies look at GPAs, we just don’t know what numbers they work with. That’s because it’s so school dependent. A 3.8 might be a good enough GPA from Exeter, from our school I don’t think anyone got into Harvard with a (as reported by our school weight) GPA of less than 103. We know you have to take a rigorous courseload in your setting. At some high schools that may mean taking 5 APs, at others it might be closer to 10, at still others it might be dual enrollment courses at the local community college. That certainly doesn’t mean stretching out math classes to make them easier. I would never ever recommend stretching calculus over two years unless your school makes you do it. I am sure my son was looked on more favorably for taking Linear Algebra as a senior than if he’d stretched Calculus over two years. (And kids who get into Ivies get A’s in Linear Algebra. They don’t need to take easier courses to get good grades.) It certainly doesn’t mean not taking your foreign language in high school - you need it to appear on the high school transcript. Some selective colleges, Harvard is one, want to see you study a foreign language in depth, they aren’t looking for two years in middle school, they are looking for you to be able to read original texts in the language and to have a real understanding of the literature and culture. In fact I suggest you read the entire section of what Harvard is looking for, because it certainly isn’t anything like what you are proposing. <a href=“Guide to Preparing for College | Harvard”>https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/preparing-college/choosing-courses</a> and “Although schools provide different opportunities, students should pursue the most demanding college-preparatory program available, consistent with each student’s readiness for particular fields of study.” from <a href=“Frequently Asked Questions | Harvard”>https://college.harvard.edu/frequently-asked-questions</a></p>
<p>On one hand, everyone tells me that HS is for education and “following your dreams” and “developing into a good human being”.</p>
<p>On the other hand, My D. still has to take many classes in her HS, that she considers useless. However, these classes are important for HS graduation and college admission.</p>
<p>On the third hand, I should not try to tweak her curriculum for college admission.(although, she is already doing it, by taking HS classes that she considers useless).</p>
<p>Isn’t it Orwellian? Follow your dream, but only if it the right type dream? Develop into a holistic person, but there is a checklist of holistic things to do. On a top of it, the checklist is confidential, it changes every year, nobody knows it, but everyone believes that it is the right checklist.</p>
<p>@mathmom,</p>
<p>Thanks. I’ll read Harvard website and I’ll try to contact them directly. If they respond, I’ll post it here. </p>
<p>BTW, I have nothing against art or music. I just think that HS is not the best venue to learn these subjects (personal opinion). </p>
<p>^^^^ Same for community service. </p>
<p>OK, I boldly E-mailed and asked one of the top colleges. Surprisingly, they answered almost instantly. </p>
<p>Briefly,
<ol>
<li><p>They evaluate schools. In other words, highest GPA in one school may mean less than lower GPA in another.</p></li>
<li><p>(my impression from E-mail), they use not weighted GPA, but look at APs, and Honors.</p></li>
<li><p>They typically accept 3.5-4.0 students. (unweight). </p></li>
<li><p>They do not look at middle school records. (explicitly stated)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
I suspect more universities would be up front about how they recalculate, if you contacted them and asked. ~10 years ago, a news columnist emailed and asked many selective universities, then posted their replies. A summary is at <a href=“http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB105899458688282900”>http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB105899458688282900</a> . Note that the methodology varied quite a bit between schools. Some counted freshman year. Some did not. Some counted +/- grades. Some did not. Some counted music, art, and other electives. Some did not. Some weighted. Some did not. A few places more emphasis on class rank than GPA.</p>
<p>At most highly selective colleges, they focus on much more than stats. Your passions and accomplishments outside of the classroom will likely have more influence than what type of recalculation method they use on your GPA. Selective colleges generally indicate as such in their CDS rankings of what criteria is most important. For example, MIT indicates the most important criteria is character/personal qualities. The essays, LORs, interview, ECs, and talent/ability are all marked as the same importance as GPA & test scores. This also fits with us not being able predict college admissions well, if we only consider stats. For example, during the past 3 years, MIT only admitted 19% of male Parchment members who had a perfect 2400 SAT with a perfect unweighted 4.0 GPA while taking 4+ AP classes. 19% is better than the overall admit rate, but they obviously are looking at more than just stats. Several years ago I was admitted to MIT, Stanford and Ivies unhooked with only a 3.4/3.5 HS GPA and 500 verbal SAT. I had several other impressive accomplishments, including showing I could handle the coursework in spite of my stats by taking a large number of courses at universities that were beyond the level offered at my HS and doing very well. However, if they were focusing on stats, I would have obviously been rejected.</p>
<p>
The link I gave earlier showed under 50 kids in the United States took 20+ AP exams. If you have multiple 20+ kids in your area, it is quite rare and likely relates to a unique HS. Selective colleges often say that they do not recommend such large number of AP exams, and in some cases say that they do not consider AP exam scores. Some example quotes are below:
</p>
<p>I expect the primary reason for such policies is to put applicants from different backgrounds on a more level playing field. For example, I have a relative who attended a public HS in a rural community that offered very few academic opportunities. There were no AP classes, no honors classes, or even classes at different levels for different students. She was quite gifted and would thrive in the right environment, both academically and in impacting the overall student community of the college, but she was very limited by her background. Stanford and at least one ivy recognized this and admitted her, even though she had not taken any AP or honor classes.</p>
<p>You kept asking how the Ivies figure out a GPA … everything I’ve read implies that they don’t. They look at the rigor of the student’s course load, the students performance in those courses, and the school’s profile and assign a simple overall grade for the students academics. If you have not read about it you may want to read about the Academic Index.</p>
<p>My guess is you won’t like it. Assigning simple grades on a 9 (?) point scale where all the viable candidates are in the 7 to 9 range probably lacks the precision you desire … however personally I think you’re seeking an illusion of precision. I think the schools have done a pretty good job of determining what level of precision provides true predictive information … that this simple scale provides the true analytical clarity the data provides … however uneasy that makes you feel.</p>
<p>Here’s what I mean by the illusion of precision. There are 30,000+ high schools in the US … I have no idea but there are probably 10,000+ GPA calculations methods across the high schools. Some issues … scales for A,B, C … how to treat honors and AP course … what about IB … what about college courses while in high school … how many of the 8 semesters count … do all types of courses or do some get excluded … that to do about transfers …etc. By the time each HS has decided on this list they have their own unique GPA calculation. If the college just take the high school GPAs and rank them that is folly. Alternatively if a college then decides to jump in and come with a set of rules and recalculate every applicants GPA … this will require many adjustments and weightings the school is adding and all of which make the final number less precise. Then in the end saying a 96.5 is statistically significantly better than a 96.0 is a pretty big stretch and what I consider the illusion of precision. </p>
<p>On top of this … in the exercise which I believe is folly I left out the elephant in the room … we have an applicant with a 96.5 and another with a 96.0 … what if the applicant with the 96.5 comes from a school with severe grade inflation while the 96.0 comes from a school with severe grade deflation … then looking at these contrived GPAs would actually give the wrong ranking.</p>
<p>To me the more I see this discussed on CC the more I think the schools know what they are doing and that they are being analytical at the appropriate level. There is data and studies out there … and their admissions processes seem to use this data and argue against the META admin stat.</p>
<p>There are studies about the correlation of the first year grades to the various stats used in the admissions process. If my memory is correct the HS GPA is the best predictor, followed by SAT subject tests, and the the SATs. At this first glance this might be an argument for a META admin stat. However the correlation of each these is actually pretty close to each other and they are all pretty weak. So what I hear you arguing for is a more rigorous statistical consider of the admissions statistics that the schools know do not predict college performance very well … that doesn’t sound very scientific to me. The idea of considering a 96.5 better than a 96.0 in this scenario seems pretty silly to me. (One last comment , the data says the best correlation comes from the combination of all those factors … and the top school do exactly that … they use all three elements and do not overstate the value or precision of those factors).</p>
<p>There is another set data which can be helpful here. There is a study that shows in general where a student attends school does not affect their outcomes very much … it’s the student not the school that determines the outcome. Included in the data is the fact that top schools do not in general improve the outcome of their students. However there are some subsets of students where attending a highly selective school does has have positive affect compared to other schools … from memory … students from lower income families, first generation college students, and minority students. If schools went to selecting by a META admin stats the number of white and asian students would increase … as would the number of students from wealthy families. In other words admissions would move away from those the data shows the school experience has more leverage to those students for whom it does not.</p>
<p>So the punch line is while I get why the META admin stat idea appears appealing the data indicates while appearing precise it would not provide meaningful information about differences between students and would work against those whom the college experience would have the most leverage. Thankfully the schools seemed to have figured this out and have admission policies that do leverage the data to the level of precision it actually provides and so that they are leveraging their admissions spots.</p>
<p>Exactly. There is no way to compare GPA’s across schools. There is not even a fair way to compare GPA’s within schools–we all know that grading is not consistent even in the same course in the same school but taught by different teachers. </p>
<p>@californiaaa, I really don’t think what people are trying to tell you is so hard to understand. It isn’t how you personally would like these colleges to run their admissions but that is how they do it. </p>
<p>Think about it this way. There are 50,000 NMSF every year. You could imagine that the most selective colleges would decide not to even consider anyone else. After all, quite a few of the top schools could fill their entire classes with such students. Yet many of the most academically successful and talented people I know didn’t qualify. But somehow, they still managed to get into elite schools. Those schools recognized their talent in the holistic process.</p>
<p>I think the best thing you could do is sit down with your daughter and her hs course catalog and say, what do you want to accomplish in the next few years? What are you interested in learning about? Have you done that, or is all your planning about optimizing her schedule to be the program you think colleges will look most favorably upon? Then make sure she has the graduation requirements covered.</p>
<p>"For example, you can’t take programing online in Art-of-Problem-Solving, because you won’t be able to highlight an online class on your resume. " You have this completely wrong. Colleges love that sort of thing. That is exactly where holistic comes in, because that kid can write an essay about their online programming experience, and/or they can talk about it in an interview. In the stats-based world you’d like to see, that kid would be out of luck because their work is not “official” and they get “no credit”. In the holistic world, they may catch the attention of admissions officers looking for kids who do things like that.</p>
<p>"There has to be some trajectory. Biology, Honors Biology, and AP Biology could be all the same animal, but with a different weight. Computer Science may mean mastering MS Word or advanced coding. Yet it is called the same. Fine arts … my D could get perfect easy grades with Fine Arts classes (she is good in them). Get perfect easy GPA. " Again, it seems like you are working hard to NOT understand what everyone is telling you. This is where high school rigor comes in. The letters from the GC and from the teachers will say whether the kid took a challenging schedule or not. And colleges won’t be looking that much at Fine Arts grades for most students. They’ll be looking at core academic subjects. But you don’t like recommendation letters because they aren’t objective enough.</p>
<p>And, if your daughter thinks so much of her education is “useless” then perhaps you should discuss with her whether she even wants to attend college, where she will be required to spend her time taking yet more “useless” courses.</p>
<p>@mathyone,</p>
<p>Probably, most issues are coming from the fact that I don’t see HS (or college) as a universe. </p>
<p>For example, Fine arts are great, yet fine arts in our HS are not very useful. My D takes classes with private tutor (and she likes it). However, she has to spend time in HS art classes as well, simply because it is a requirement. </p>
<p>"And, if your daughter thinks so much of her education is “useless” then perhaps you should discuss with her whether she even wants to attend college, where she will be required to spend her time taking yet more “useless” courses. "</p>
<p>And what are the options? Live without a college degree? </p>
<p>There are plenty of people living in this country without a college degree. I would guess there are many artists who lack a college degree.</p>
<p>I also don’t see how a kid who loves art would think her hs art class is useless. My daughter also loves art and she loves her art class at school as well as the 2 art clubs and selective admission art program she participates in. It is not like math where if you already understand the material you aren’t going to get much out of the class. She spends several hours on each 45 minute sketchbook assignment because that is the level she chooses to participate at.</p>
<p>“And colleges won’t be looking that much at Fine Arts grades for most students. They’ll be looking at core academic subjects.”</p>
<p>Honestly, it would be helpful if such info is published by colleges. </p>
<p>Why can’t adcoms standardize at least one parameter - GPA calculation? It will help tremendously (at minimum) in collecting data for statistical analysis. For example, to compare HSs. To identify HSs with GPA inflation. To compare HSs from different states and regions. There is tons of useful data that may help in optimizing national education - yet, instead of collecting and utilizing this data, each college makes it’s own calculation, that is not comparable to the others. </p>
<p>BTW - “academic rigor” is interpreted in 10,000 different ways.</p>
<p>“But you don’t like recommendation letters because they aren’t objective enough.”</p>
<p>I grew up in a country that knows the word “corruption”. LORs are very important for college admission, parents spend tens of thousands dollars for admission counseling, rich parents spend millions on donations for the prospective colleges. Money, demand, highly subjective letters, total lack of transparency, no sunshine, money, money, money … The Founding Fathers of the United States of America did not have very much faith in human nature … why should I have faith in adcoms and LORs?</p>
<p>BTW, I’ve never had a sour personal experience with teachers in my DDs schools; I am not a disgruntled parent. I want to know my rights (just in case). </p>
<p>Academic rigor is not interpreted in 10,000 different ways if you’re talking about the 30 or so most competitive colleges in the US. A challenging curriculum won’t look the same if the kid is from Stuyvesant HS in NYC or Boston Latin (public magnet schools) as it would from a kid who lives in Chester Pennsylvania or the South Side of Chicago. But even a kid at a terrible HS can challenge him or herself. </p>
<p>You are making this all too hard IMHO. In your various posts you seem to harbor a lot of resentment towards your kids school. If the school isn’t a good fit for your child- then take her out and find a better one. But don’t waste your parenting energy tilting at windmills.</p>
<p>And in the aggregate, the number of parents who can buy their way into a top school is a tiny, tiny number. So tiny it’s not worth worrying about. You can get a list of who has given a 7 figure gift to any college in America by calling their development office and trust me-- it won’t take you a month to pore over the list to figure out who has bought their kid into Harvard (less than five kids per year) or Yale (ditto). Not worth worrying about. The parents dutifully writing checks for 10,0000 or 100K thinking that little Johnny with the 580 SAT math score and the B+ average at Choate is getting into Princeton because he’s a “development case”- that doesn’t happen. Not 10K, not Princeton.</p>
<p>Relax. You are putting so much angst in the wrong places.</p>
<p>“Why can’t adcoms standardize at least one parameter - GPA calculation? It will help tremendously (at minimum) in collecting data for statistical analysis. For example, to compare HSs. To identify HSs with GPA inflation. To compare HSs from different states and regions. There is tons of useful data that may help in optimizing national education - yet, instead of collecting and utilizing this data, each college makes it’s own calculation, that is not comparable to the others.”</p>
<p>The UC colleges do make such a calculation, don’t they? And yet you are complaining about nearly everything that happens at your child’s high school, from teachers that don’t know who the kids are, to lousy arts classes, to the huge number of classes your kid considers a waste of time.</p>
<p>You can tell about grade inflation from looking at the school profile. For instance at our grade-inflated school, a simple unweighted 4.0 doesn’t even get you into the top quarter of the class. To make the top 10% you would have to take more than half of your classes honors/AP/dual and get straight A’s, and the best students are taking 3/4 of their classes honors/AP/dual and getting straight A’s. How much data do you need? </p>
<p>Op,
There is no way to compare GPA across all of the HS in the US due to