<p>Hello everyone, I am currently trying to decide where to attend college next year and Colgate is very high on my list. I will be an econ major and I would like to be in the business field when I graduate. Many jobs require high GPAs just to get interviews, and I have read a lot about the rigor of Colgate classes. Is there a lot of grade deflation present at Colgate, and is it tough to maintain a high GPA in Econ and still have an active social life? I obviously want the best job opportunities possible. Thanks</p>
<p>@mcfc21: It’s not deflated so much as it is not inflated and challenging. How about just going there and working hard. I feel that most employers and graduate schools know about the schools that have lower mean graduating GPA’s than other universities. I don’t like these questions because it assumes you should show up to a top school, and not really be challenged for top grades (you kind of just expect them if you do the work, regardless of it’s done exceptionally well or not). Let’s say you went somewhere like Harvard which is known to have a very difficult economics program. While Harvard is awarding higher grades than many places, it’s because it’s much harder. In addition, employers will know that you aren’t that good if they see lots of B’s (same could be said for sciences there, where classes are significantly harder than many other top 20 schools, but they are still curved to a solid B just like many of those places are). </p>
<p>Someone posted this in another thread about the rigor of Colgate (sometime in 2013): " I’m currently a junior at Colgate. I would say Colgate is difficult, but getting an A is not impossible.</p>
<p>If it helps, the average college GPA of students at Colgate is 3.33, compared to an average college GPA of 3.50 of similar calibre LACs" </p>
<p>This is slightly less inflated than top research universities like Emory (I think our GPA is going toward that level because they have placed many of our economics classes on a curve as of last year, and there are many econ and pre-bus majors), Vanderbilt, Chicago, Penn, and Cornell (all between 3.35-3.4), It is also a bigger grade inflation than Johns Hopkins and Princeton. Seems like if you just do what you’re supposed to at a place with a 3.3+ average, you’ll do fine. Just don’t expect things to be handed to you simply because “they need to understand that I want the best jobs”. </p>
<p>Let’s take the following science course syllabus from Colgate: <a href=“http://classes.colgate.edu/jchanatry/chem101/chem101f_f04.pdf”>http://classes.colgate.edu/jchanatry/chem101/chem101f_f04.pdf</a></p>
<p>See the bottom about how the curve works when necessary. This is the way many selective schools (the ones I mention above), still grade. The B-(or whatever is the lowest B grade possible) will usually start at the “median” (usually slightly higher than mean). This effectively results in difficult courses being curved to C+/B- in certain cases or B-/B. Colgate is not unusual here. It’s not like you’re going to somewhere like Reed or Harvey Mudd where the mean is more like 3.0-3.15. </p>
<p>Also, given that that was a science course, expect many economics courses to grade more generously. Social science departments can be rigorous, but are more aware about the norms in grading and what is too harsh to the point that students are put at a disadvantage. Social science depts. at many schools often hover around or a bit above the mean of the school and typically econ. would be the hardest since it is more quantitative. I would expect it to yield a 3.3-3.4 (this range says that you still have to work for A grades but that they are far from unattainable and that if you fail to make one, you should at least make a B+ and no worse than a B) mean which isn’t bad at all. Sciences drag down the mean. </p>
<p>@bernie12 Thank you for your reply. I understand that wherever I attend, I will need to work extremely hard to get the GPA I desire and I in no way intended for my post to come off as if I was entitled to a high GPA, which I now realize it may have. I realize that Colgate courses are rigorous and challenging- but in a good way. </p>
<p>My concern is only on the job opportunity subject, and you did mention how students at Colgate have a lower GPA on average compared to students at similar calibre LACs. These students are likely to be the students that I will be competing against for jobs, and I don’t think that employers will automatically recognize that Colgate academics may be graded harsher than some of Colgate’s competitors, which puts me at a disadvantage. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, I know I will work hard wherever I attend. Thank you for your in-depth reply. </p>
<p>@mcfc21: No, they know how to differentiate because they will have hired graduates from the school in the past and they know what the thresholds for predicting “competence” are (and they won’t be the same). They (the employers) aren’t that dumb. There is a reason that Princeton has not really been all that hurt by its policy. Don’t be naive with this. If Colgate has always been tougher than the other schools (as it has been) and still does well with placing into various venues, then the employers know it. The disadvantage you see is theoretically true, but probably not reality. Also, I wouldn’t assume that you’re being compared to those at other LACs (many students at LAC’s won’t be applying to those jobs). National University students are applying to those jobs and they mostly go to schools that grade similarly to Colgate. They have no reservations about doing so (attending those schools) either (they don’t go…maybe I should go to Swarthmore because it grades even better than Harvard and Duke). Economics and social science grading is pretty standard across schools anyway. Some schools just have much more inflation in the humanities (and may curve science courses at B/B+ on average). </p>
<p>@bernie12 What about for sciences? I’m deciding between going to my local provincial university in Canada and obtaining an undergrad degree then going to med school at the same school or going to an Ivy, getting a science degree from there then coming back to provincial university for Med school? Would there be a significant difference in rigor and ease of obtaining a high GPA between a provincial (same thing as a state in US) school and an IVY? Which would result in better chances of being accepted to med school?</p>
<p>Which Ivy (and do you plan to major in a science? If so, which one. I can give specific info. then)? It depends. I’ll lay out scenarios. Some Ivies compare with other top 20-25 US national universities in where most of their science courses are indeed a bit more rigorous than state schools, but are not for geniuses for the most part. Given this, you don’t have to worry about the content so much as the competition (the curve). Penn and Cornell are the two toughest grading (B- curve) Ivies in the sciences overall and are not among the “pre-med courses for geniuses crowd”. The other scenario is if you go to some place like HYPSMCt, Columbia, or even Dartmouth where even the content is more difficult overall than at other top schools (With HYPSMCt being at completely different levels and still having most sciences only curved to a solid B, so not much of a compensation). So, in some cases, the Ivies (and even some top 20-25) science instructors will be for “geniuses” and also have very high competition levels. This could be averse for a numbers game like pre-med. However, if you choose the Ivy, more doors could open than close if pre-med GPA dips some (you could consider science or many other options because the training was excellent and the brand of the school is good). In addition, at top schools, there is often a way to “game” it in a good way that doesn’t just focus on GPA. </p>
<p>Here’s something I never understand and that you should avoid if you go to the Ivy/top school (this is a part of the gaming for a student that comes in with advanced credit): Everyone will suggest that you forfeit AP credits and retake intro. courses for an easy A. Guess what, many top schools (my alma mater, Emory, is one that has instructors like this, and from I’ve seen, most Ivies I mention have instructors like this too. They’ll try to ask very difficult application or conceptual questions on exams and intentionally place more emphasis on topics not emphasized by AP/IB so as to level the playing field and just make the course somewhat difficult for everyone) have instructors teaching these courses who KNOW that many students come in with a 4/5 or 6/7 AP or IB respectively, so will make it hard enough so that not even many of them make A grades (they will do better than the course average, but only like a B/B+ when the mean is a C+ or B -). Don’t retake the class under the guise of securing an easy A or “reviewing”. It isn’t worth it. You won’t really learn anything new (and you won’t retain it anyway. Intro. physics and chem classes for the “masses” at many schools, even top ones, are made difficult, but often in a “plug and chug” way. You don’t actually learn it for a long time so much as you do for specific exams. Intro. biology education at many top schools varies a lot though, and that’s the iffy one because it’s very well possible that it differs dramatically from AP/IB other than being more difficult. It may flat out emphasize certain learning and analytical skills that AP/IB did not. If you go to a school where the intro. biology instructors are predominantly multiple choice/matching/fill in the blank like Cornell and you place out, skip it. If you go to a school with half or pre-dominantly essay/problem solving, consider retaking, because the sequence at that top school is trying to reorient you away from the way you learn biology in HS and prep you for advanced courses which focus on experimental situations and problem solving.) and you may get a much lower grade than expected. </p>
<p>Often, the science courses (whether it be freshman organic, advanced/accelerated gen. chem, accelerated physics/math courses, etc) designed for advanced freshman at top schools give higher grades. They are much harder content wise, but they don’t want to punish students so grade on a more lenient curve or incorporate elements to the course that allow for students to compensate for mediocre exam scores. So in such cases, it often works out that you learn MUCH more and get a higher grade than if you simply retake the intro. in which you got credit or placed out of (many schools have placement exams, don’t bomb them on purpose, seriously). Also, it often works such that the more advanced freshman courses are more collaborative and less competitive (perhaps because they are designed for those who want to learn and not the mixture of both neurotically competitive/nervous and lazy pre-meds). They make for better environments where you indeed have to think hard, but you work for the grade you get. The teachers aren’t trying to screw folks so that the intro. course yields a certain distribution that signals rigor (this is only superficial rigor and makes for an environment less conducive to either learning or making a good grade 
). </p>
<p>@mcfc21 – short answer, yes it is possible. you just have to work hard. many have done it and many are doing it.</p>