Grade Inflation or Smart, Hard-Working Kids?

<p>Soozie, hello again. It is equally tough to get straight A's at my dd's h.s., it seems, as at yours. The classes are so hard, & for the upperclassmen generally more like college in terms of expectations (homework output, level of writing, amount of thoughtful participation in discussion, etc.) For the last 3 years, most h.s. alums returning to share college news report that their various colleges are <em>easier</em> (much more so) than this h.s. There was a second h.s. that my older D almost went to, where returning college freshmen said the same. These colleges spoken of were not bottom tier colleges, mind you -- although none were Ivies. As I recall they were selective colleges, but not super-selective. Such comments were not made by returnees to other popular private but less selective h.s.'s in our area. Therefore, I can be sure that the standards of D's h.s. are high indeed. Students that I consider her intellectual peers nevertheless have a few B's, which has surprised me, although I still hold them in just as high esteem; that just reinforces the standard, to me.</p>

<p>But I have a question for you all I've been meaning to ask anyway. (So thanks digmedia) What happens when 2 or more are tied for Val.? Who gives the speech? And is a Val. always chosen by GPA alone? What if someone has the same GPA but significantly more--& higher level-- academic awards given by the school? Or more challenging courses?</p>

<p>In both old & new grammar rules, A's should include the apostrophe.</p>

<p>digmedia, it appears ya got some serious grade inflation going on there. I'm not sure the percentage of A's given in our HS, but I know that the AP Physics teacher is uber tough and if 10% of the students get an A its a lot.</p>

<p>Jamimom, a HS with an average SAT of 1350 is outstanding even if it is a private school. Here are some statistics from some well known independent schools in the northeast. School Name/Avg SAT/%admit rate Phillips Exeter/1390/27%, Choate Rosemary Hall/1337/27%, Deerfield/1335/23%, Groton/1360/28%, Peddie/1286/22%, Phillips Academy/1363/21%, Milton/1360/21%. For chuckles I averaged the SAT's for all listed Massachusetts academies which was 1209 for the 14 that posted scores. A significant number didn't for whatever reason. Given the highly selective admissions of the well known independents and the kinds of families who typically sent their children to such schools, the average SAT's are hardly surprising.</p>

<p>I think our suburban HS which sends between 25 and 33% of our students to the local community college, with 16% disabled classified, 5% economically disadvantaged, and where about 87% of students take the SAT, an average SAT of 1049 isn't too bad. Another school in the county which is much wealthier with an average annual family income of $136,000 vs $66,000 for our town has an average SAT score of 1172. That still pales in comparison to that 1350 score!</p>

<p>And boy am I way off topic. But its late and that is my excuse!</p>

<p>if i am remmebering right, our val graduated with all A's and maybe one B, i'm not entirely sure. it was close between her and teh second person, but that person ended up getting an extra b somewhere.</p>

<p>It's hard to tell how much grade inflation there is at our hs - it looks like a lot when you read the honor roll each semester, but the school profile tells a different story. Our GPA is on a 5.5 scale, with 5.5 indicating an A-plus (97-100 average), 5.0 an A (93-96), and 4.5 an A-minus (90-92). Grades are neither ranked nor weighted.</p>

<p>There are 375 kids in my d's senior class, and 40-50 make "high honors" each marking period (4.75 required, which is about a ... 91?). But the school profile, which reports a cumulative GPA after 6 semesters, shows only 11 kids, or about 3 percent, with GPAs between 5.0 and 5.5, and 43 kids in the A-minus range. (No one has graduated with a 5.5 GPA in at least 10 years - if ever.) Certainly MANY more kids than 11 would have solid A averages if a numerical figure were reported, and several would have averages in the 97-100 range. </p>

<p>Apparently no one ever gets an A-plus in gym, which is figured into the GPA and has the effect of holding the overall GPA down, making the entire school look as if grade inflation is non-existent. The cumulative GPA is figured to the thousandth decimal point and not rounded up, which also makes grading look more rigorous than it truly is.</p>

<p>This doesn't seem to hurt in college admissions, as kids from our hs usually do quite well getting into top schools (average SAT is 1130 - good but not amazing). There's no val or sal, but a "Senior Scholar" (kid with highest GPA) is announced just before graduation, and he/she does speak during the ceremony. Despite the unweighted grades policy, the scholar is always someone who has taken a full slate of AP classes - just works out that way.</p>

<p>I really enjoy reading about how other schools handle the grading/weighting issue. I'm starting to think our school system may actually do some things right!</p>

<p>Our high school is very average - it sounds a lot like Charlesives described above, the SAT at ours may be a little lower. At our school, honors courses (beginning in 9th grade for all academic subjects except foreign language, which begins honors in 11th grade) are weighted to 4.5 on a 4.0 scale and AP classes are weighted 5.0 on a 4.0 scale. I think this is a very fair way to determine class rank, as a student must take difficult courses to achieve a high ranking. There has never been a tie for val. or sal. to my knowledge, although this year there may be a tie for #1. Our district does not have extremely high competition for academic achievement. In fact, I would say we have a problem in the opposite direction, except among a small group of the highest achieving students. For this reason, I think it is good that the ranking and weighting system is in place, although many districts where there is more intense competition for achievement among a large group of superior students no longer rank.</p>

<p>Carolyn, DD's school is similar to your child's. She ranks 12 our of 195 with a weighted GPA of 3.65 with an aggressive course load. There are only 2 students with GPAs that are 4.0. I'm sure when she applies to colleges her GPA will be an issue...but the school profile shows the range of GPAs so....that tells a lot.</p>

<p>Diggi:</p>

<p>One thing to consider is that MA has the highest cutoff for NM semi, along with DC and MD. One small piece of data: our hs has an average SAT score below 1000, although it was explained to us that this was due to the higher participation of the students in the bottom quartile (37% vs. 5% in many suburban districts). It was also argued that the average SAT for the top 60% of the students was at least as high as the national average (for the third quartile) or higher (for the top two quartiles). The school has about 1800 students. This past year, we had 7 NMSF and 8 Commended. Since the cutoff for Commended is the same nationwide, it may actually be a better yardstick than the number of NMSF. I have no idea what the average GPA is. It certainly is not A or even A-. Our hs does not weight.
I realize one data point is statistically worthless, but you may find it of interest.</p>

<p>Given the stratospheric levels of grade inflation--I think I read on the ETS site that 35% of 1.3 myn PSAT takers identify themseves as having A or A+ averages, and given that many high schools don't rank, and many name high numbers valedictorian, and adding to that the nearly incredible levels of "praise inflation" which anyone who has had to read a large number of letters of recommendation is familiar with, you have to wonder how Adcoms function at all. It is easy to see why standardized tests, despite all their well-known problems, are becoming increasingly important.</p>

<p>Both our daughters went to the premier math & science public school in Illinois. I looked up their grade distribution, and at first it looks like rampant inflation - 45% A's, 44% B's, 8% C's. However, this is a school for gifted kids, and there is an entrance exam - the high grades <em>may</em> simply be an indication of how smart the kids are (here, or in any other school).</p>

<p>As possible confirmation, out of the senior class of 199 in 2004, 51 were NM semifinalists. SAT I scores averaged 1370, PSAT averaged 198, ACT averaged 30.0. There were 134 Illinois State scholars, 4 Westinghouse Siemens semifinalists and 2 Intel Science Talent Search semifinalists. I'm reasonably sure other good schools around the country have similar statistics.</p>

<p>Our graduating classes of about 800 usually have 1 to 3 NM semifinalists and about 5-8 commended.</p>

<p>My daughter that attends inner city public school has about 400 in the senior class of which almost that number graduate and about 300 attend post high school education.
In 2003 ( don'thave 04 numbers) they had 28 National merit finalists, average SAT score is 1171.
I dont have numbers of honor roll, but my daughter who was in special ed till 8th grade, is now getting a 3.8gpa in challenging classes ( 6 academic classes)</p>

<p>My kids attend an urban school of 2000 in the midwest. They don't weight grades. My oldest graduated in 2002. In his class of 475 there were 12 with 4.0 and about 10 NM finalists. I don't know how many commended there were. Inserestingly, not all the NM finalists had 4.0. My next one graduated last spring. His class was 550 and had 25 kids with 4.0 and only 5 finalists. Again, not all the finalists had 4.0. On average, my oldest sons class seems more like what they usually see. Will be interesting to see what my current junior's class looks like. </p>

<p>I do know that most of the kids with 4.0 all took the difficult classes. And I know that my kids work hard for their grades. My oldest and youngest have better grades than the middle and they work harder and pay more attention to assignments. I don't see rampant grade inflation at our school. </p>

<p>On a philisophical tangent, should grades be based on a student mastering the material or should they be a reflection of how students compare to each other? If a teacher teaches very well and the students learn all the information well and accomplish the teaching objectives, shouldn't those students be awarded a top grade? If a calculus test covers all the unit topics indepth and students do well, shouldn't they get a high grade? Is this grade inflation?</p>

<p>Epiphany,
Responding to a few things you brought up. I can't say the same with my daughter regarding college being "easier" than high school. She goes to Brown University where she says the classes are very challenging and demanding and the kids seem brilliant to her. It seems that almost every kid she has met went to private schools, including well regarded prep schools, though she went to a rural public school where only 2/3s of the kids even go to college. However, even though our high school is not as competitive or full of AP this and that, her courses were demanding and she felt well prepared for college work. She says lots of what she learned in her courses, she is using in college. She placed out of some levels in math and foreign language. She had to write a lot in high school and now again in college but she was used to this kind of writing. While a very good high school or prep school prepares kids well, I also think it is really the student who makes or breaks how they do in college, not what high school they came from. My daughter happens to be self motivated and has high standards for herself and achieved straight As at Brown so far, though it was certainly NOT easier than high school. I would say the one thing that is easier is her daily schedule. In high school, she had more courses with many hours of daily homework often due the next day, had to attend school for seven hours and then about five hours of EC per day, plus a lot of travel time to these things, ECs most of the weekend, a part time job, and lots of homework on weekends. Pretty much every hour was accounted for. In college, she only has classes for maybe 3 hours or so per day. She is on a varsity sports team which involved seven sessions per week first semester and then in winter will involve two full weekday mornings and all of Saturdays and Sundays out of town, and might take on other ECs. But she has more hours to do the homework than before. She is doing way more social things on top of her activities than she ever did in high school. So, it is working out easier in some ways but definitely not easier school work. </p>

<p>You asked a few things about the valedictorian issues. In our school, I have not recently seen any ties for val. Only one kid had a 4.0 each year. The val and the sal gave speeches. There is not a competitive atmosphere here or any "race" to make val at all. I don't even think kids know who is ranked what til senior year when it comes up in relation to graduation and stuff. Here, val is chosen strictly by GPA. You asked about higher level awards or more difficult courseloads and any effect on choosing the val and here, the answer is no. It so happens that my daughter who was val, took the most rigorous courseload, which made it harder to be ranked so high because she got no "credit" for taking much harder classes. Actually the kids ranked second, third, and fourth, either took no Honors/AP or maybe just one. This means that often the kids who are not taking the hardest classes can be ranked higher than kids who are taking them. It only just happened that my D ended up being the only kid with straight A's even though she took the harder classes. However, the system does not "reward" those who take on more challenging coursework here. She researched and developed a weighted GPA policy in terms of class rank so as to encourage students to challenge themselves. It was a long process getting such a policy passed but indeed it was adopted by the school board and affects those starting with the class of 2006, which was to have been her sister's class but now she is graduating a year early and does not benefit from the policy her sister wrote. She takes the hardest classes as well, plus acceleration beyond her grade level, but I am sure there are kids ranked above her who are in the easiest tracked classes. </p>

<p>I don't know this for sure, but to be in the NHS at our school, I THINK you have to have over a 3.5 GPA (plus lots of other criteria) and I would say roughly 10% of the class gets in. </p>

<p>I already mentioned the avg. SAT score at our school (and not everyone takes it or is college bound) and it is 1038. I think kids at our school would think my kids SAT scores were really high and they were, compared to most at our school, but on CC would not stand out at all (at least when I read all those kids' stats posts). </p>

<p>I have read some students on here post that a kid who was val or who had straight A's in some unknown public high school (like ours) would likely not do so well at some well regarded prep school (supposedly much harder to get good grades at) but I beg to differ with that perception. I think the top students at our rural high school would do just fine in the best prep schools but just did not choose to attend such high schools. I think my daughter, coming out of such a high school, has fared quite well at her Ivy league school, among many kids who came from such elite prep schools. </p>

<p>Shennie, you asked an interesting question about grading. I think grades should be based on what you learned and the quality of the work and the effort and not be a comparison with others. I agree with you that if you do the work very well, then you earned the top grade. I think there should be grading criteria and if you meet it, you earn it. So what if many in the class achieve it? As a former teacher myself, having taught at five colleges, I certainly never came up with a system where I only gave a certain number of A's, B's, C's, etc. I had established grading criteria and used it to evaluate the work. It could be that lots of students achieved an A or only a few. It depended on their individual work but not any grand total or comparison with other students. A lof ot it just depended on the students in the class and each one's individual efforts. I can say that some courses I taught, particularly graduate courses, many earned A's. One college I taught at, the ability and effort of the students varied widely and some were doing A work and some were failing.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>"If a calculus test covers all the unit topics indepth and students do well, shouldn't they get a high grade?"</p>

<p>if all of them score a 5 on the AP Calc AB/BC exam in May, then giving them all As is justifiable. </p>

<p>"On a philisophical tangent, should grades be based on a student mastering the material or should they be a reflection of how students compare to each other?"</p>

<p>the latter is equivalent to grading on a curve, which is grade inflation.</p>

<p>or deflation
my older daughter attends college that is in the top 10 percentage of students who receive Phds in all majors and #1 in her major, so I assume that a majority are prepared for grad school.
The average GPA is 2.7 & this is a curve.
so while some ( very few) students may be getting a B and even fewer an A, just as many students are getting D's and some are flunking the class. They may be flunking when they would have passed at another school. :(
I think they should grade according to work produced.</p>

<p>"Grading on a curve" can either be grade inflation or deflation, depending on how the curve works. When I was in college the few curved classes were generally bad news, only 2-3 A grades/ class even if 4-5 or more students made As on all the exams.
Being a math science person, I'm a firm believer in the "body of knowledge" theory, you master a body of knowledge, you should receive a mastery grade, but that's a lot easier in quantifiable fields.</p>

<p>I remember our high school as giving fewer As as recently as 5 years ago. Then something happened, there were students at our local h.s. who were Semifinalists but not Finalists because of a few Cs. The school instituted a new policy in which an interim report card is issued 1/2 way between each marking period.That changed everything. There are no more surprises and everyone can pull their grade up before report cards are issued if they try. Of course this does not affect exam grades, but they only constitute 10% of each semester (2) grade. </p>

<p>Our h.s. of 2000 has usually 10-12 Semifinalists and 15-18 Commended.This includes maybe two or three Black or Hispanics. Last year was the worst year with only 8 Semifinalists.</p>

<p>What is grade inflation??</p>

<p>"(So thanks digmedia) What happens when 2 or more are tied for Val.? Who gives the speech?"</p>

<p>At my daughter's school, there were two Vals and a salutatorian, my daughter (she got a B in drivers ed!), who all spoke.</p>

<p>See:</p>

<p>"Easy graders hurt kids" <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A46059-2004Apr27&notFound=true%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A46059-2004Apr27&notFound=true&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Also see:</p>

<p>"Where all grades are above average" <a href="http://www.duke.edu/%7Estuart/gradeaboveaverage.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.duke.edu/~stuart/gradeaboveaverage.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>