Grade inlfation?

<p>mport,
When I was there; there were calculus and calculus for business students. The exams given in the one for b-students were easier (and pretty easy). </p>

<p>missmolly,
I was happy with my choice. NU was the kind of school I felt I should aim for. The ChemE program was very good there. I made the transfer almost 10 years ago and at that time, NU was considered a better school; the students were definitely of higher quality. For example, a lot of international students at WashU would take at least 2 semesters of ESL/writing classes before they could take the EngComp. I was one of the few internationals that got EngComp out of the way by the end of freshman year even my English wasn't (and still isn't) that good. At NU, there's no ESL class and every international was expected to dive into the freshman writing class right away. Many of them spoke so well as if they grew up in the US. But WashU made a phenomenal rise in the last ten years. Now the two are pretty much on equal footing. It's amazing how much it has accomplished in such a short time.</p>

<p>Your son made a right decision in the sense that he's happy at WashU now and that's what really matters. But you never know if he'd be happier or not at Northwestern.</p>

<p>NUgraduate,
I don't think people are less social at NU and both schools are equally demanding. But the quarter system at NU tends to make one's schedule look more hectic.</p>

<p>Sam lee,</p>

<p>Thanks for the insights...who knows maybe NU for grad school (?)</p>

<p>Just to be clear, though I adored Northwestern (and remain friends with many of my past classmates) I am very happy with my daughter's choice of Wash U. I do agree that Wash U. was not thought of us as highly (in rankings) when I was in college more than ten years ago... But, I certainly noticed when it inched past NU this past year! Bravo for Wash U! I hope, and expect, my daughter to have as wonderful an experience at her alma mater as I did at mine. I hope she goes to her 20th college reunion, as I did, and has friends fly from each coast to meet there - as mine did. I hope, if she chooses to pledge a sorority, that she is still in touch with half of her pledge class on a regular basis, as I am. Perhaps she'll meet her spouse at Wash U, as my parents met at Northwestern, and my niece met her husband at Northwestern? Clearly I am vested in my old school (hence the screen name) but I think it would have been a mistake for my daughter to go to Northwestern. I know Wash U is a better fit for her, for many reasons. Most important is that the schools have strengths in different areas - and Wash U fits my daughter, NU did not. It always shocks me that other people feel as strongly about their alma mater's as I do mine. You have no idea the ferocity of support my friend who graduated from Notre Dame exhibits. Anyway, I guess my point is that I do realize that kids can, and do, love schools differently. I just wanted to point out that proximity to Chicago, is a major difference between NU and Wash U.</p>

<p>Grade Inflation:</p>

<p>A crude measure of "grade inflation" would be the number of students who get all A's in the first semester. As I hear it, at Princeton this number is high,
(400 + in an incoming freshmen class of 1380) however on the West Coast at Stanford this number is low (125 to 150 in a class of 1650.) Schools do not release this statistical data. No idea about Washington University. Wash Univ is a reputed school in the midwest, with well known business school, med school and law school.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Sam Lee - I'm glad you're pretty ignorant about the b-school. The course usually referred to as "b-school calc" is actually called "Calculus for the Life, Social and Managerial Sciences", and is taught by ArtSci professors. It's basically a math course for those not majoring in math.</p>

<p>My son was one of the top students in his high school, but no longer tops at Wash U! Not easy for him to get As....in certain subjects.</p>

<p>The calculus class offered for B-schoolers might be easier because most of us will not extensively use calculus in our careers. It was not easy though, I got my lowest grade in it. However, it is not actually part of the Business school.</p>

<p>Isn't there one big difference between the course the b-schoolers take and the other calc courses - that there are no trig functions in the b-school version?</p>

<p>oncampus,</p>

<p>I never said the course was offered in the b-school; both were offered by the math department and that's the reason why I saw the "easier" exam since the keys for both exams were posted right next to each other. I was planning to be a chemistry/chemE major; I wasn't a math major either. Also my friends in the b-schools seemed to have a lot more free time while my peers (premeds and engineering majors) were constantly studying. A b-major may may feel he got a lot of work. But I thought I got a lot more (hence yours is easy). It's all relative. After all, I did take on what's known to be the hardest route (chemE) at WashU.</p>

<p>missmolly,
That's probably one of the reasons why some don't think there's grade inflation. They expect to get straight As like they did in high schools and they find they can't achieve that anymore at a school like WashU. Then they translate that as grade deflation.</p>

<p>Yes, I agree Sam Lee
Now my S is more realistic. He can no longer show up and get As...Now he has to work to get decent grades.</p>

<p>Actually Sam Lee, My roomate is a Chemical Engineering major and he, along with most other Chemical Engineering majors, believes that Biomedical Engineering is the most difficult of the Wash U majors. They have the same exact courseload except, BME's take Bio. Regardless of your sound logic, which i find impressive, the primary difference between Calculus 128 and 132 is the additional hour of lab that students in 132 are required to take.
People are often quick to defend their own path(hence your assertion that ChemE is the most difficult) so I am sure that you understand the disagreements that you have encountered.</p>

<p>Missmolly, I could not agree with you more.</p>

<p>robertgregorydt,</p>

<p>It's understandable you disagreed since the current situation is apparently different from 8 years ago. When I was there, BME was in its infancy. Nobody knows much about it. At that time, the difference between the two calculus was obvious. I don't recall having an hour of lab for calculus either. Is that just some discussion/TA section?</p>

<p>Grade Inflation depends on the department. Most of wash u is pretty deflated. The science departments chemistry & biology are ultra deflated and hard because of the way they set the curves not because of the material. In other words these classes are hard because everyone else taking them are smart too. English is slightly inflated. BME is still evolving. A few years ago it was very deflated. Now only the intro bme 140 class is ultra deflated the rest only slightly deflated. The rest of the college classes seem fair... you might have to work hard but in the end you feel that you get what you deserve.</p>

<p>it's definitely all about what you major in. as an english/psych person, let's just say i don't do a whole lot of work and i have a 3.8. i am a really good writer though (not to be whatever, but i am) so that might have something to do with it. bio/chem/etc on the other hand is a whole different story...</p>

<p>I can emphatically tell you there is no grade inflation at WashU. A former roomate of mine is working on a project with the business school where he has access to comparative data on grade inflation, both within different schools in the university and other peer institutions. </p>

<p>The verdict? Substantially less grade inflation than at the ivies, et al. Unsurprisingly, however, there is more grade inflation at WashU than at U Chicago.</p>

<p>Also, the WashU engineering school is the easiest in the university (as far as grade distribution is concerned). Within the arts and sciences, I can tell you from my own experience as a biology major that in a large number of courses I've taken, grades were normalized around .8 (C+/B-). I think hardly anyone would call that grade inflation. </p>

<p>Also, Sam Lee graduated years ago--in just the 3 years I have been here, I have noticed classes get progressively more difficult and the workload more intense.</p>

<p>fsb321,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Unsurprisingly, however, there is more grade inflation at WashU than at U Chicago

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You said there's more grade inflation at WashU than UChicago. Do you know UChicago's average GPA is around 3.26? Just around half the UChicago seniors graduate with honors (>3.25) these days. Even the school newspaper admits grade inflation is happening; it's "deflated" relative to schools like Harvard and Stanford.</p>

<p>Some people cited large sciences classes. Well, the premed classes are deflated even in schools known for grade inflation. </p>

<p>Grade inflation isn't about how hard to get an A because the caliber of your classmates. It's about the average GPA for the whole student body. Otherwise, Harvard wouldn't be considerd grade-inflated in the sense that even if half of the class get A, it's pretty tough to outsmart an "average" person at Harvard. </p>

<p>If the average GPA is like 2.9, then it is deflated. But I seriously doubt that's what happens at WashU. WashU's med school placement is at a very respectable rate of 80s%. I don't think any school with grade deflation can have such success. FYI: MIT's placement rate is in the 70s and Berkeley's is around 60%. On the other thand, schools that I know with >80% placement rate are known for grade inflation--Stanford, Northwestern, Princeton, Harvard, Duke..etc. I don't see how WashU is an exception. JHU isn't known for grade inflation and has a 90% rate. But the school has a premed advising committee that is reportedly discouraging weaker applicants from applying to med schools. Also, JHU may be just another Cornell with grade deflation being a myth instead. If WashU is indeed more inflated than Chicago as you mentioned, then it's average GPA is higher than 3.26; that means there's no grade deflation.</p>

<p>I'm very skeptical about the whole phenomenon of grade inflation. In fact, US Department of Education figures show that average undergraduate GPAs have decreased since the 60s and 70s (I read this in the Chronicle of Higher Education). People have been claiming that Harvard gives out As and Bs too easily since 1860(!). Can this really be true? From what I understand of grade inflation, it's basically when no matter what you turn in.. you get at least a B or above on it. I've heard claims that schools like Harvard and Stanford grade on this "A to B continuum." Regardless, my point is this: I believe grading at WashU to be fair, and there is data to indicate that lower grades are given out more frequently that at its peer institutions. </p>

<p>With respect to U Chicago: I've heard WashU's avg GPA is something like 3.3. I admit that things are probably changing over at Chicago; maybe they realized that, whatever the school's reputation, they were actually <em>hurting</em> their student's chances by only giving out As once in a blue moon.</p>

<p>Also, all of my high school friends are sitting in state schools ("prestigious" state schools, at that) playing video games all and getting 3.9something GPAs. Are they incredibly intelligent? Not really, although they're not dumb. So maybe there's grade inflation at state schools... I mean, they're having a really easy time there, right? Let me explain what I think is going on here. Not too long ago, it was an accomplishment to go to college: not many people went. Today, an astounding number of people go. I've had at least two hair stylists with BAs in psychology. A friend told that the local restaurant he worked for required a BA for a head waiter position. In other words, an undergraduate education is ubiquitous in 2006. Whereas those with college educations have always been thought to earn significantly more than those with only a high school diploma, this too is changing. Inflation-adjusted earnings for college graduates have been steadily <em>declining</em> since 1990. Apparently, a college education is worth about $200,000 in increased salary over a lifetime (I sure hope that number is after the $150,000 price tag). First- and (especially) Second-tier state schools are full of students who would never have gone to college 30-40 years ago. They'd have graduated high school and begun some sort of career, or maybe they'd have gotten some vocational training. But now they're in college, and I believe standards have decreased as a result, allowing my friends to study less and get better grades than at our high schol (it should be the other way around, shouldn't it?). Very talented students, however, still enroll in state schools. As there's no grade higher than an A, they also get a high GPA. When comparing students, it's unfortunately much easier to look at a number (GPA) than to take the time to investigate the academic rigor of the school and the program of study taken at said school (this, particularly, is really a shame). So, when Average Joe with a 3.7 GPA from Ohio State and Jane, who graduate from U Chicago with a 2.9, apply for a job, it's really hard for employers to ignore this disparity. Despite their best intentions in assigning to U Chicago the difficulty and prestige it deserves, they can't help but feel uneasy that Jane's "number" is lower. I think this is really what it comes down to: the average quiality of state school students has decreased while their GPA remains unchanged, for the most part. In response, the GPA of the average elite private school student has adjusted accordingly. Nevertheless, I think that at WashU some more work still goes into earning those higher grades than at other institutions.</p>

<p>Some people do get bad grades at prestigious school: notably, our political leaders (Bush, Kerry, Al Gore, &c)</p>

<p>the avg. WashU gpa is a 3.12</p>

<p>I <em>wish</em> it were 3.12, but our student paper reported that it is a 3.3. I don't know where you're getting your data.... but then again I don't know where they're getting their data.</p>

<p>bump....................</p>