<p>the GFG: It was early April when S finally responded to our phone calls only to find he’s walking back from a 3 hour physics exam that had content he did not study/learn and that students were melting down and walking out of. He passed but by the skin of his teeth.</p>
<p>All who took the exam echoed his feelings.</p>
<p>I appreciate there’s another parent who is going through this commenting and you may find the feedback from CC very helpful.</p>
<p>S has stated he is confident he can do this and will talk with his advisor about some proactive study habits. Here at home, we are considering summer tutoring or even a cc class just to brush up on physics one. My mom suggestion maybe switching engineer major as his exploration in glass class really peaked his interest.</p>
<p>This is not an easy path for our kids and it’s tough when we find we really can’t “fix” it; they truly have to sort it out themselves…</p>
<p>What’s that old saying: what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger? (:</p>
<p>Here’s hoping are children are testimonials to that someday!</p>
<p>Or in the words of a song from Next to Normal, “what doesn’t kill you doesn’t kill you.”</p>
<p>OP, you may have touched on this and I missed it, but does your son really truly truly want to be an engineer? Engineering has become a very popular major, because of all of the articles and studies that say that the jobs are in engineering. (Like they said for Finance a few years back.) Lots of students change majors, because they truly aren’t “engineers.” (I think we all know them when we see them.)</p>
<p>We had the situation of son earning a D- in a frosh physics class that brought his GPA down to 2.97. Yep he lost his merit aid. Just to make it more frustrating, the course was taught by an elderly prof who was so out of it most of the class dropped out, failed or did poorly. Another prof called the class “broken.” It was never taught again by that prof. Fortunately the aid was only (hah) $4k per year. We very carefully did not make a big deal out of the fact that the merit was lost. DS graduated on time with his degree. </p>
<p>We had perspective because both mom and dad had been in science / engineering fields and we knew going in that maintaining a 3.0 gpa in a hard core STEM program is unlikely. So we had realistic expectations and considered the merit good for one year and anything beyond that would be a bonus.</p>
<p>BTW son graduated with a nice GPA well above the 3.0. I have been suspicious of the merit game since. Really only reliable for 1 year (depends on the fine print) and after that it’s a risk to the kid’s self esteem when/if they lose it. </p>
<p>In college a C is more like a C (average) than in high school. It is not a failing mark. But it can make kids feel like failures when they lose aid. Unfortunate game.</p>
<p>What do they call an engineer with a C average? An engineer.</p>
<p>Editing to add: I fantasized about marching up to the U and complaining but the conversation we chose to have instead w/ DS was along the lines of, you will have great prof’s and crummy ones; you will have great bosses and coworkers and crummy ones. When you encounter a crummy prof consider that s/he has alerted you to the realm of material you must learn, and then find a way to learn it. Get out some more books, find another teacher/TA/group of smart kids, search the web. Learn the material. You may not ace the prof’s tests but you will probably pass if you know the basics of the subject. You can either whine and blame or you can figure out how to succeed despite difficulty. Once in a while I think back and get ticked off, but you can consider that we paid a bit extra for DS to learn to rise above challenges and persevere despite failure. A very. valuable. lesson.</p>
<p>In hs, S began a series of classes in program called Project Lead the Way in which he was introduced to CIM, DDP, Priciples of Engineering and Aerospace Engineering. So his feet are somewhat wet as far as what IS engineering. He passed all the classes for college credit.</p>
<p>That said, college level engineering is another animal entirely and he’s found that out in quick order!</p>
<p>He’s made up his mind he’s continuing forward with some tweaking on the physics this summer and will give next semester all he’s got. We’ll be revisiting his direction at that point but the kid has been given ample opportunity to look us in the eye and say: “I can’t do this…” and he hasn’t.</p>
<p>I haven’t read this entire thread, but did you know most colleges allow a student to retake a course and then drop that first bad grade when it’s a D? Maybe this was already suggested, because those grades are important, particularly if it’s a requirement.</p>
<p>I like the idea that he’ll take some courses over the summer and he’ll get some tutoring, but it doesn’t sound like he needed to drop his major. Just don’t take so many courses in one semester. That’s one reason why most engineering degrees are on the 5-year plan.</p>
<p>Most engineering bachelor’s degrees, like most other bachelor’s degrees, are officially 4-year plans. But 4-year graduation rates are often low (in engineering and other subjects) at schools less selective than the most selective state flagships.</p>
<p>While engineering students at some schools commonly do co-op semesters that can extend calendar time without increasing the number of semesters in school, it is common for students (engineering or otherwise) to need extra semesters due to:</p>
<ul>
<li>Needing remedial course work upon entry. Not being ready for freshman calculus upon entry makes it much more difficult for an engineering student to graduate in eight semesters.</li>
<li>Taking lighter course loads than recommended in the course plan for the major.</li>
<li>Some D/F grades which must be repeated or which gain no credit to graduation.</li>
<li>Not following the course plan for the major or paying enough attention to prerequisite sequences when choosing courses.</li>
<li>Late change of major.</li>
</ul>
<p>The first three reasons tend to get less common at more selective schools.</p>
<p>Note that Cal Poly Pomona has a four year graduation guarantee for students not needing remedial course work. They guarantee that you will be able to register for the courses needed to graduate in your major in four years (twelve quarters). But the actual four year graduation rate is under 20%.</p>
<p>I think I missed the OP’s son’s reason for taking 7 classes and how many credits each one was worth.</p>
<p>I do know that some Freshman Engineering Programs offer a lot of 1 and 2 credit req’d courses, so maybe that’s what happened.</p>
<p>Also, if he did use AP credits to skip science/math classes, I wish all schools would avoid letting kids do that. For one thing, many high schools do an inadequate job in the math/science APs and also, skipping to the next level eliminates the “easy A” aspect and can make the entire semester load too difficult for a frosh eng’g student. Frosh year (even engineering) should be a mix of lighter and harder classes. Yes, the course are sequenced, but if you’re coming in with some AP math/science credits, you don’t have to use them…just stay in the sequence.</p>
<p>Merrymaid, what classes is your son taking next year? I’m suggesting that you ask him, and then let us know here, so we can comment on the load. I think 7 classes for a freshman is much too much, even if some of them were just one or two credits. </p>
<p>I’ll also verify that the curve for engineering/science classes can be much different than other disciplines. First of all, there is a curve – unlike in some humanities classes where almost everyone can get an A, many STEM profs decide that only x% is getting A, and x percentage getting a B, and set strict cut-offs. And they often believe, in what seems old-fashioned today, that C is an average grade.</p>
<p>I agree that except for that physics grade, he did really well given his workload and health issues.</p>
<p>^ inthinknthe only problem with AP credit isntheyearbin wich you earn it. AP stats as a HS sophomore will make it hard to remember as a college fresh/ soph. I think a 5 shows you get it. </p>
<p>Maybe AP should only be offered to seniors so they don’t forget the material.</p>
<p>Well, the really good students in math are ready to take calculus BC as high school juniors or earlier; it would not make sense to tell them to wait when math is probably their favorite subject in school anyway. (And they probably go on to take college math courses at a local college while still in high school after getting an easy 5 on the BC test.)</p>
I think many schools do what Carnegie Mellon does - make students take a math placement exam. I remember my son receiving a FAQ from the SCS department - Q. “Why do I have to take a placement exam when I got a 5 on the BC exam?” A. We want to make sure you remember the material. If you do our placement exam will be easy.</p>
<p>And yes, my son was one of those kids who took more math in high school after taking BC as a junior, and yes he did fine on the placement exam.</p>
<p>We periodically see stories like this - my kid was a great student in high school and is now struggling in college physics because the professor asked questions on the exam that weren’t covered in class, and flunked half the class.</p>
<p>I wonder if the world is full of evil, diabolical physics professors - or if their might be another explanation.</p>
<p>High school physics is, I think most places, a challenging course for high school. You have to pay attention in class, you have to read the assigned material, you have to do all the homework problems. But the exams ask mostly spit-back-the-facts questions and present problems very much like those that you saw in the homework. You can get through it, and get a good grade, without really understanding physics.</p>
<p>College physics, OTOH, is - or should be - a very different animal. To get a good grade, you have to study and understand the material in depth. You have to be able to apply the principles to kinds of problems you haven’t seen before - because isn’t that why doing physics is really all about? So on the exam, a student sees a problem that isn’t exactly like one he has seen before - but that he should be able to work the solution to if he understands the principles. You can’t simply apply the mechanics - you have to understand and apply the principles.</p>
<p>(This is in no way a criticism of the OP’s son, who I think deserves commendation for keeping his head above water with such a challenging freshman schedule!)</p>
<p>I agree completely, annasdad. Ideally college will teach the student how to think and problem solve on a high level. My concern is that the professors are not actually teaching them to think and problem solve on higher level. Of course the test questions need to be different, or else it would a simple matter of memorization or spit-back. BUT, the test questions are not just different, they are of a totally different magnitude of difficulty and the student has not practiced or been prepared by the homework for that level of difficulty. Kids aren’t born knowing how to solve complex physics problems.</p>
Nowadays, the standard textbooks for Intro Physics have all the bells and whistles you could imagine. An enterprising student could teach himself Physics I. Not enough students take full advantage of the resources available in the textbook alone. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, at the upper and grad levels students are still subjected to the “wall of text” books of Jackson, Goldstein, and the like.</p>
<p>Actually, Frazzled kids and friends have reported that their STEM classes have run the gamut in terms of whether they have been expected to memorize or learn to solve types of probems they have never seen and cannot be expected to get 100% correct. In large lecture classes with multiple choice homework and exams, geared towards engineers and becoming increasingly common from what I can see, the emphasis is not on problem solving so much as memorization of solutions found in the text.</p>
<p>The s son could very well have succeeded in this course, but with such a heavy schedule, he did just okay in all his courses. With a lighter load he could have spent more time on the remaining classes and very likely he would have at least pulled a c.</p>
<p>It’s kind of arrogant to suggest people should be able to self teach physics, as if somehow this kid should have been more motivated. I think he was overly motivated and took too much on, and then was sick as well. </p>
<p>Maybe he didn’t ask for help soon enough, but that is a lesson learned.</p>