Grades vs. Curriculum Difficulty

Colleges and Universities A-Z California Institute of Technology
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<p>I know that B's in math/sciences are red flags for Caltech but what happens if you get a B+ in AP Calculus AB(had an insanely unfair teacher) say sophomore year but get a 5 on the AP test??? Also, it is better to challenge yourself in math/science and take the hardest schedule available(while risking some B's) than take regular honors classes right???</p>

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<p>
[quote]
what happens if you get a B+ in AP Calculus AB(had an insanely unfair teacher)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It certainly won't help. It's hard for us to judge whether the teacher was really "insanely unfair" or whether that's more of an excuse to make up for a bad grade. The way to fix this problem is to achieve impressively on things like AMC/AIME and/or research competitions, and get straight A's in science otherwise, and A+'s if you can in Calc BC. Otherwise it's a serious problem for your application.</p>

<p>
[quote]
it is better to challenge yourself in math/science and take the hardest schedule available(while risking some B's) than take regular honors classes right???

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Honestly, the only good strategy is to take the hardest schedule available and get straight A's. Pretty much all of our admitted students can pull that off. Taking a subpar load like honors instead of AP will make you look bad, as will getting less than perfect grades in AP science and math classes. The pool is very competitive, so that's just the hard truth.</p>

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<p>Good luck in your future math studies. Ben's reply reflects the truth that the several most selective colleges for math/science majors in the United States (of which Caltech is one) have many, many applicants who somehow manage to do their school homework with top grades AND do additional learning outside the school curriculum that they can demonstrate according to competitive, objective standards. Don't give up trying if you've had one bad experience, but take initiative to learn and CHECK what you are learning beyond what is assigned in class, and to make sure you are meeting your teachers' requirements, fair or not. </p>

<p>Best wishes in your college applications.</p>

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<p>ben, this is disheartening. i also feel like my teachers have been very harsh on me, and as a result, i have b's in many classes, including bc calc, abstract algebra, and discrete mathematics (logic and turing machines) in my new school, all taught by the same teacher who i swear holds a grudge against me. (other math classes by other teachers are As, so i get a B in a math class iff it is taught by said teacher). it really makes me sad, since I work really hard in these classes and have great interest in math. Also, I have high aime scores and such (10+ for two years) and completed original research in mathematical logic submitted to the journal annals of math last year when i was 15, accepted and awaiting publication. I also believe I am a decent writer, having won a gold key and several essay scholarships, and yet I get almost straight Bs in english and history. </p>

<p>I think the reason the teachers are this way is because my school is quite competitive and most people (including me) get less than 3 hours of sleep a night. There has been so much cheating that it is impossible for anyone, even our school's imo medalist, to finish all work by himself. I had straight As at my old school too! There are very very subjective standards at this school, but no one can say anything about it.</p>

<p>Getting to the point though, I thought caltech would review the application as a whole or put an applicant in context, but i guess i was wrong. hmm, it looks like i shouldn't apply at all unless i want another reject letter. sorry for being so negative, but i feel like i've wasted my entire high school career. when you look at my transcript, you will probably think "bright but lazy: automatically denied" and laugh at it or something before throwing it into the trash. </p>

<p>dan</p>

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<p>Going back to grades in advanced math/science courses, are students penalized for getting A-minuses isntead of A-pluses? My school does GPA by A (90-100) so outside of getting the A, there is no real incentive to go for the A+, especially for those who know the material and do not need to work hard for the A. But now I see that A-minuses are a 3.7 on the 4.0 unweighted scale, so my unweighted gpa is lower than it would have been had that been made apparent to me earlier.</p>

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<p>Chebyshev, the 10+ on AIME are very impressive. I'm sure the admission committee will try to look into your grades to see what the deal is. I'll wait and let Ben give you a full response though.</p>

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<p>Chebyshev, it seems that you failed to read Ben's post in its entirety. He did state that doing impressively on the AIME or research competitions would help you. </p>

<p>Your USAMTS gold medal and Mandelbrot Competition accomplishment would also probably help you out. Anyway, they certainly wouldn't hurt. Also, are you sure you got more than 10 on the AIME twice? Your other posts indicate that you got a 10 this year and that your "scores were abysmal" in sophomore and freshman year. Despite your academic accomplishments, your post seems indicative of low self-esteem (you are obviously a bright and talented applicant), malice (HAY GUYS I M GOOD AT CONTESTS BUT I DONT THINK YUO WANT ME TO APPLI AM I RITE??), and possibly dishonesty. If it's low self-esteem, then fine. Good luck with that, and realize that you're a great applicant at many places if you can get recommendations that will offset your GPA. A good recommendation from the teacher that gave you those B's would be a valuable addition to your application, but a rec from any math teacher praising you for your diligence would be good as well. </p>

<p>If you are indeed trying to cause trouble, I'd rather you not apply to Caltech. No matter how bright you are or what you have accomplished, the school would be better off without such a personality harrassing its students. </p>

<p>Integrity is also something highly valued at Caltech, especially in terms of academic honesty. If you can not handle this part of Caltech, I strongly recommend that you do not apply there.</p>

<p>Best of luck in your application process!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Also, I have high aime scores and such (10+ for two years) and completed original research in mathematical logic submitted to the journal annals of math last year when i was 15, accepted and awaiting publication.

[/quote]
chebyshev -- if true... a big if... this makes up for bad grades. If I read correctly, you have gotten a paper accepted at the Annals of Mathematics. As you probably know, the Annals of Mathematics is the top field journal in math. While your claim of getting a paper accepted for publication there is almost unbelievable (we would verify with the journal to make sure), this is such an achievement that you could flunk most of your high school classes and still get accepted here. Not many new Assistant Professors can get a publication in the Annals.</p>

<p>Anyway, this is precisely what I was saying before -- you can make up for bad grades with achievements like getting published in the best field journal, or even something smaller like getting a high placement in the USAMO. It's just that bad grades set the bar higher.</p>

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<p>Perhaps I can be forgiven for being a little mean spirited:</p>

<p>

[quote=chebyshev]
tetrahedr0n, you did not make usamo <a href="All%20posts%20in%20chronological%20order.">/quote</a></p>

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<p>tetrahedr0n, </p>

<p>I want you doing research for me if anyone starts arguing about something I said online. Good luck in your college applications.</p>

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<p>Hey chebyshev! I'm a rising junior going to attend your school. I suck really bad at AMC, but alright at math in the class room. I've taken AP Calc BC(5) as a self-study, so I'm taking graph theory and multivariable calc this year. What kind of math courses would you advise I take? I've already take AP Stats(4 :( ) freshmen year.</p>

<p>PS: Ben Golub: will my AP Stats score hurt me? I got an A in the class, but seeing as I didn't know about this site, nobody taught me how hard the test would be, and I didn't have any prep books, would it be ok?
Oh, and I've taken the hardest classes so far(better than any previous guy at my school), but I have a B+ in French Sophomore year.</p>

<p>Here are my AP's:</p>

<p>AP Stats - 4
AP Physics B - 5
AP Calculus AB - 5(subscore)
AP Calculus BC - 5
AP Computer Science AB - 5</p>

<p>Am I looking ok?</p>

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<p>Ha, tokenadult. I don't go this kind of extreme often, but I hate it when people lie about math achievements.</p>

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<p>We won't care that much about your stats score, though it won't look great. Just get good grades in harder math classes.</p>

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<p>I also beleive that you do not need to submit the 4 from AP Stats. I also suspect that the fact that you took it freshman year would help ameliorate the grade if you do submit it. At least this is how I would have gone about it back when I was on the admissions committee (though that was three years ago...)</p>

<p>Galen</p>

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<p>I'm having difficulty believing chebyshev's story. I go to NCSSM (06). As far as I know, there was only one qualifier of USAMO this year from our school and she was an asian girl. And I'm not aware of any IMO medalists. We get more than 3 (Some even manage 8-9) hours of sleep and I have not noticed nearly the level of cheating you've described.</p>

<p>And I also can't imagine who you are. You described yourself as a white male who was on the math team (Which is actually made up of almost entirely asians) and did mandlebrot, and took the problem solving seminar (again, all asians), and are on the tennis team as well ( on my hall are on the tennis team, so I have a fairly good idea) Edit: Just talked to a friend on the tennis team, everyone on the team was on my hall except two, and I know them pretty well.</p>

<p>Well I can't think of one person who matches that description. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. My opinion is that you do go to NCSSM, but lied a lot in your posts.</p>

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<p>Talked to Dr. Morrison(Head of CS department there) from NCSSM, and he confirms that chebyshev is lying.</p>

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<p>Busted! This Penny</a> Arcade seems topical, only replace "knife in bag" with "lying about accomplishments".</p>

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<p>I sure hope cheb doesn't get into Caltech or MIT, seeing as he not only lied about his accomplishments, but degraded the name of a good school in the process(NCSSM).</p>

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<p>I think he's having fun... his trolling is pretty transparent and he doesn't come back to respond, so basically he's enjoying himself at our expense. Let's stop feeding him.</p>

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<p>maybe I should just fail all my classes and devote 100% of my time to getting published in that journal.</p>