<p>I'm thinking about the relative value of grades and extracurricular activities. Some background:</p>
<p>My son lives at a residential school and just became a floor leader for senior year. This is similar to what other schools call community leader, resident advisor, etc. He will be responsible for organizing social activities and peer counseling for younger students on his floor.</p>
<p>I have little doubt that this will bring his grades down a bit. With my son, grades and ECs are a zero-sum game: one can not increase without the other decreasing. I would guess that he'll drop from a 3.6 to maybe a 3.4 (unweighted) for the year, with a mix of AP, concurrent-credit, and honors-level classes. But it's a done deal, so I'm not complaining, just waiting to see how it will turn out. If anything, I'm glad he took the initiative to take on a significant responsibility.</p>
<p>My question is, what do you think about the trade-off between grades and ECs? Do you think it's better to take on only the ECs you can handle without any drop in grades? Or would you rather see your kid achieve a little less in the classroom in exchange for a more rewarding life outside the classroom? And how will colleges look upon this?</p>
<p>Our criteria has always been that EC’s are only allowed if they do not impact grades. Our D is very involved and knows I will ask if doing such-and-such will cause her to slip even a little. As long as she says “No” and goes on to prove it, she’s allowed.</p>
<p>You’d be surprised what the difference between 3.4 and 3.6 can be. For example: at Alabama a certain SAT score with a 3.6 gets full OSS tutition. You get nothing (I think) if you have a 3.4.</p>
<p>Yes life outside of the classroom is important. But many manage to do both without hurting either. Your son needs to realize he’s making a choice that he might regret down the road. My S is lamenting not working harder his fr year as he now applies for law schools. That D he got in Greek Mytho is coming back to haunt him.</p>
<p>Last year, our guidance counselors showed us a study where someone polled admissions officers as to what they most take into consideration when reading a student’s file. They then compiled a list of 15 things in order of importance. First was grades. Second was rigor of coursework. Third was standardized test scores…and on. Eleventh was extracurriculars. </p>
<p>That being said, I don’t think all ECs are created equal. I would think a floor leader would look better than being one of a million other kids in “Youth to Youth.”</p>
<p>I believe this, but it also perplexes me. If this is true, then a 4.0 GPA and 2400 SAT should pretty much guarantee admission to the best schools. However, top schools are always quick to point out how they reject such students routinely (or so they make it seem) if they lack “leadership potential” and whatnot. The survey you mention suggests that they’re not practicing what they preach.</p>
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<p>That’s what I’m banking on, but of course I can’t be sure.</p>
<p>EC’s aren’t automatically a drag on grades. Often the opposite is true: students who are more engaged in EC’s whether at the school or off-campus often take more care to plan their schedules, or to set an example for others through their schoolwork as well as their EC’s. </p>
<p>I know that in my son’s case, his engagement in a team activity (debate) helped to keep him engaged in his school-related activities generally – including his classes – and also brought the coaches to bear to make sure he wasn’t neglecting his studies.</p>
<p>Alas, it’s too late now; he’s already in training for the position. I’m concerned, but this is a kid who until recently couldn’t remember to tie his own shoes or eat when hungry. So, in a way, I’m so tickled that he is doing something fairly grown-up that I’m willing to overlook the grade thing. Of course, once I see those grades, I may change my mind! We shall see.</p>
<p>mackinaw, I do hope that the same is true for my son. Experience doesn’t make me hopeful, but maybe this is the year he suddenly becomes a good time manager. That would be a joy.</p>
<p>That’s because top schools attract a TON of very qualified applicants…tons more than for the available slots. </p>
<p>If your grades are not up to snuff, the rigor of your ECs will not make up for them…unless you are an olympic athlete, a nobel prize winning scientist, or a very gifted and well known musician (or the off spring of the above).</p>
<p>Let’s look at that change of 3.6 to 3.4 a little further…</p>
<p>For sake of discussion, I’ll say he has a 3.6 over 3 years of high school and he will get grades equalling a 3.4 both semesters of his senior year.</p>
<p>The impact on his cumulative GPA will only be to drop it from a 3.6 to a 3.57 (6 semesters * 3.6 + 1 semester * 3.4 / 7 total semesters) the first semester. This is the point where non-EA/ED are made. Insignificant! If you have EA or ED decisions there is no penalty because 1st term senior grades are not used. Take the EC!</p>
<p>The correct answer, of course, is to do the EC but maintain the grades. D’s EC was absorbing 18-20 hours/week during 11th & 12th grades. She had a 3.9uw in high school so maybe her grades could have been a little better, though those five B’s were not particularly clustered in any one year or semester. </p>
<p>In the moment, she paid by getting through hs with very short sleep, often working past midnight on calculus problem sets and having to be at school with some faint emulation of bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at 7:20am. In the longer run, she had developed outstanding time management and study skills so that her translation to college was a snap. It was as if she was running a tougher race but without the weights strapped to her ankles.</p>
<p>Neat analysis, goaliedad. Looking at it that way, I feel a bit better.</p>
<p>He’s taking 7 classes each semester, or 14 for the year. If he gets 8 A’s and 6 B’s, that would be a 3.57 average, which would be typical for him. I figure three of those A’s will become B’s, so now it’s 5 A’s and 9 B’s, for a 3.36 average. I rounded that to 3.6 and 3.4, respectively.</p>
<p>If this is a typical year, he’ll have all B’s with a month left in the semester, then he’ll go, “Oh my God, I need to kick it into high gear!” Then he’ll sleep two hours a night for an entire month, be irritable as all get-out, and bring about half of them up to A’s.</p>
<p>I would think that the type of ECs that would excuse lower grades would be in the range of “Olympic Medalist” “Acadamy Award Nominee” “National Champion” and the like.</p>
<p>I am going to agree with hmom5 except that… while NOT a recruited athlete by definition, I have come to the conclusion that there was indeed some consideration given to the fact that my son was a three sport athlete and captain of two of these his senior year and yet still managed to get solid grades in the toughest curriculum. Were they straight A’s? nope. The only year he had straight A’s were his senior year, and even then there was a minus or two in there and, as has been pointed out, certainly second semester grades didn’t earn him admission. I will guess, however, that with all that was on his plate, getting straight A’s the first semester probably tilted any scales in his favor. Did schools (especially DIII) look at him as a possible contributing member of one of their teams? Perhaps. But I have to say I think it’s more about passion with your ECs than it is about doing them when it comes to admissions. And there was a huge leadership piece there as well. But in the end, if you don’t have the grades or scores, you gotta be something beyond special to have them ignored and still get in.</p>
<p>Having been through the application process with one child and two to go, I’d LOVE to talk to the admissions officers and ask if any of Son’s ECs made a shred of difference in the admissions process, or if it was 99% grades and test scores. </p>
<p>It can be astounding how little room there is for ECs on some of the app forms. One form at a well regarded school was actually a “check the box” - so it didn’t matter if the applicant did the EC one hour a month for one year, or 30 hours a month for four years, it was all the same box to check.</p>
<p>Isn’t that the truth! I think in the Gatekeepers book, there is the story of one young man who thought that his submission of pages of science fiction stories he had written plus a letter of rec from a famous science fiction writer was the key to his acceptance. Turns out that the admissions officers didn’t read his stories and thought that he didn’t really know this science fiction writer well (which he did). </p>
<p>What pushed this kid to the admit pile? A letter of rec from the parents of a disabled boy this applicant had befriended over the years and stories of how well he treated his friend. </p>
<p>So, yes, I’d love to see what really made the difference in an application.</p>
<p>Count us among the parents who told our kids that ECs could not interfere with grades. In fact…I’ll take it one step further…our kids studied instruments and were allowed to choose only ONE other after school activity in addition. So…it could be dance, children’s chorus, scouts, etc…but NOT more than one of those things. To be honest, when they were younger, we just didn’t have the time or desire to taxi them around to tons of different activities after school. As they got older, this helped them prioritize their interests. DS was taking tap dancing when he was accepted into a children’s chorus in fourth grade. We told him to pick. Sure, we could have driven him someplace every day of the week, but that wasn’t our choice. SO…he had to choose (he chose the chorus). DD was in the same chorus when she decided she wanted to be on the swim team. BOTH were significantly heavy in hours per week commitment. Again…choices choices…she couldn’t do both and also be able to eat, sleep and attend school. She chose to do the swim team (she was already doing youth orchestra as part of her instrumental work so it wasn’t like she was abandoning music).</p>
<p>If, at any time, any of these EC activities had interfered with grades, the EC would have been ditched…and the kids knew it. I will say, when my kids were busier, they also budgeted their time much better.</p>
<p>OK, everyone on CC - repeat after me (as many times as necessary):
There’s more to life than grades.
There’s more to life than grades.
There’s more to life than grades…</p>
<p>Yes, grades and test scores are the #1 thing that get a student into college. And they are # 1 for some merit money. But isn’t this whole college thing about preparation for life? And do good grades always predict a happy and successful life? I submit that what the OP’s son will learn from being a floor leader will include things he can’t learn in class, and those same things will be very useful in dealing with people and leading them in the future. He will probably remember a lot more of what he learns from this experience than he will from what he learns in History or Calculus.</p>
<p>Those who are most successful in careers and life have not only brains, but PEOPLE SKILLS. PEOPLE SKILLS are crucial in virtually every career I can think of - if for no other reason than office politics. People skills are not learned in class - they are learned on athletic fields and in clubs and organizations. </p>
<p>DS is an outstanding student, and is halfway through his career at a selective LAC. I personally think he’s going to learn as much from being VP of his frat as he’s going to learn in his classes - that’s why his college refers to “CO-curriculars” instead of “Extra-curriculars” - because learning doesn’t just occur in the classroom.</p>
<p>My D is a solid student, but not the academic star her brother was. But her list of ECs puts his to shame. She doesn’t have a shot at some of the colleges he was accepted to, but it doesn’t matter. She has an outstanding ability to read people, to organize events, and to get people to follow her lead. She’s genuinely nice to people without being condescending, and people LIKE her. When the faculty had to nominate 2 juniors to represent their class at this year’s graduation, D was nominated by multiple staff members (and ultimately chosen as the female rep), even though her class rank is probably 2nd or 3rd decile. Why did they chose her over other kids with better grades? She is a leader and a good role model - neither of which she learned in the classroom.</p>
<p>So why is the OP’s son at school? To get into college, or to prepare for life? If the answer is the latter, then being a floor leader sounds great to me.</p>
<p>Also, I agree that ECs vs grades does not have to be a zero-sum game. My D gets her best grades when she’s busiest. Numerous studies have shown that kids who are involved in EC’s do better in school.</p>
<p>One caveat re: a drop in GPA in the senior year. Selective colleges often look for trends in grades as well as the rigor of the classes taken. They far prefer to see a rising GPA rather then a declining GPA, and thus a decline in grades in the Sr year can have a bigger negative impact on colleges admissions than achieving the SAME overall GPA starting with lower Freshman grades. Some colleges “ignore” [or say they do] Freshman grades and focus only on grades from 10th grade on. They know the freshman year is a transition year and often give students a year to get used to the rigor of HS.</p>
<p>“On what basis do admissions committees anoint the chosen? The question has preoccupied generations of applicants. “There is no magic formula,” says Gila Reinstein, a Yale spokeswoman. “It’s just not an exact thing.” Nonetheless, the College Board’s annual survey of colleges and universities does ask them to rank admissions criteria. No surprise: high school academic record is consistently rated “very important,” as are standardized test scores (Harvard contends they’re only “important”). But what about all that other stuff? Institutions below admit the country’s best students: 25 percent of their freshman classes, fall 2004, scored 700 or more on the math or verbal SAT and placed in the top 10 percent of their high school graduating classes. But academics alone won’t get you in. Here’s what else matters.”</p>