<p>I'm an international applicant for undergraduate studies at Harvard.
But I haven't figured out how this Graduate thing works yet
Well, I get the impression, that even if you get into Harvard, it is still possible that you can't finish your master there since you have to apply all over again...
Is that really possible? Please tell me, that a student, who spent 4 years at Harvard and spent thousands of $ gets an advantage in the Graduate application process!
After finishing the Bachelor degree at an Ivy League college, you must have an advantage when you apply for graduate studies at another Ivy League school, right?(Even with a relatively low GPA?!)
Or could I got the "easy" way, like finishing my Bachelor with a good GPA at an average college and afterwards apply for Ivy League Graduate studies...?
Thanks for your help, heyholetsgo</p>
<p>You are correct about the first statement that even if you graduate from Harvard with your bachelor's you may not be considered for one of their graduate programs. It may actually, hurt you to go to Harvard for undergrad if you intend to go their for graduate school as well.</p>
<p>Your second question depends on many things. Graduate school admission is not a numbers game like undergraduate admissions is. X GPA + Y GRE does not = admission, so you are not solely judged on your GPA and GRE score, whether you went to Harvard or a state school.</p>
<p>THX.
All I want to know is, if a Bachelor in an Ivy League School makes it easier to get into a great Graduate programm.
Lets just say you get average GPA + GRE scores at a top universities...
In that case, are you screwed?
I'd say that an average Harvard GPA is still way more prestigious than a great GPA at an average university, right?</p>
<p>And just btw. Is the GRE as important as the SATs in the undergrad. admission?</p>
<p>if you are currently applying for an undergrad, i dont think you should worry about grad school AT ALL.</p>
<p>that being said ....
many, if not most, departments (esp humanities and basic science) are not keen to accept its own undergrads for grad. you also dont want to be stuck with the same university for multiple degrees since that is often considered "not ideal." thus getting into a history phd at harvard will be, from what i heard, MUCH harder if you also got your ba in history at harvard. this is true for almost all major universities. </p>
<p>of course, top universities carry some weight in the admission process. so yes, your harvard undergrad education will help you getting into a good grad program. not only a name recognition, harvard (and its peers) provides opportunities that are unparalleled by less known schools. with that degree, you will have an easy time getting into a lesser known university for sure. top grad program admission is a different story (since you will be just one of hundreds students from top 10 universities).</p>
<p>average (say, 3.2) harvard GPA > great GPA (say, 3.7) state university is a false, in my opinion. just look up grad students in a lab of your interest. ive seen over and over again, especially at competitive programs, that great candidates from average university (small LAC, state university, small private university) are actually doing much better than average candidates from top private universities. of course, being "great" at a private school with a big endowment (i.e. harvard) is perhaps easier since it'll feed you with alot of awesome and not-so-awesome opportunities that will look great on your resume.</p>
<p>last, no GRE is not as important as SAT. in fact, after a threshold for your chosen field, i dont think, profs would really care.</p>
<p>THX!
You really helped me A LOT!
If it's really like that, I think I'll just finish my Bachelor in Germany and apply afterwards in the US!</p>
<p>But it does makes a difference if you are an international applicant to US graduate school and you do your undergraduate from somewhere else than a US college. I think applicants who do their undergraduate in a US school have slight advantage over the ones who do their undergradaute from somewhere else. ALthough it is just a slight advantage and your overall application package matters the most.</p>
<p>This is according to a person here at harvard who used to participate in yale graduate admissions...</p>
<p>
[quote]
many, if not most, departments (esp humanities and basic science) are not keen to accept its own undergrads for grad. you also dont want to be stuck with the same university for multiple degrees since that is often considered "not ideal." thus getting into a history phd at harvard will be, from what i heard, MUCH harder if you also got your ba in history at harvard. this is true for almost all major universities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree that this is indeed true at many major universities.</p>
<p>But one major exception is in fact Harvard. Harvard is notorious for having its own undergrads admitted to its grad programs, and yes, for humanities and science too. In fact, Harvard is arguably the most 'incestuous' school in the country. I suspect that the only school that may be more incestuous when it comes to admitting its own undergrads may be its neighbor, MIT. </p>
<p>Since you used history as an example, let's go with history. Here is the list of Harvard history grad students who are on the job market. {I display them and not the entire population because only they have public websites). Just clicking through them, you will notice that a strikingly large number of them are indeed former Harvard undergrads. While I didn't do the analysis, I would suspect that there are more of them who came from Harvard undergrad than from any other undergrad program. </p>
<p>Harvard</a> University History Department - Graduate Students: Job Candidates</p>
<p>Did you misread? Most of the people on that website did not go to harvard for undergrad. On that entire list, maybe 3 did.</p>
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Did you misread? Most of the people on that website did not go to harvard for undergrad. On that entire list, maybe 3 did.
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</p>
<p>Uh, did you misread? I never said that "most" went to Harvard for undergrad. I simply pointed out that Harvard is one of the most common undergrad programs for Harvard history grad students.</p>
<p>Please be more careful when you read my posts next time.</p>
<p>I guess a "strikingly large number" means 3.</p>
<p>Youre from India aren't you? A masters is not a de facto requirement here the way that it is in India. The British system has a 3 year bachelors and so people tend to go on to a 2 year masters afterwards before entering the workforce. Not necessary here.</p>
<p>Three from the Harvard website also went to Princeton undergrad. Additionally, four don't list any undergrad institution at all. Out of a list of 18, there's no real statistical significance here. I think the most one can say is that Harvard, and the Ivies in general are a bit less concerned about academic incest than most other institutions. However, doing both undergrad and grad at the same Ivy will likely hurt you in the job market when applying to institutions that aren't HYPS.</p>
<p>Not one of those "Harvard is the best school so therefore I should be able to go wherever I want to go" threads... exactly what Bush did and only because of his family. Us, little people, like you and me, life doesn't work that way. Harvard's better for grad school, not so much for undergrad. Apply elsewhere if you want to apply to Harvard for grad school (even so, no place, even Harvard, can guarantee admissions).</p>
<p>So, um, you're still gambling thousands of dollars anyway in a US education. I mean, Harvard's just as pricey as any other private university in the US.</p>
<p>Nothing, nothing is guaranteed in grad school admissions.</p>
<p>Nothing is guaranteed, absolutely, and it's all a gamble. Still, it's a better gamble to go to Harvard as an undergrad if you want to get into a top graduate program (whether or not that's at Harvard or somewhere else), not necessarily because of the name, but because of the connections you can make and the opportunities you can take advantage of.</p>
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I guess a "strikingly large number" means 3.
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</p>
<p>I would say so, particularly as it has been asserted that it is "much harder" to get into Harvard grad if you were a former undergrad.</p>
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However, doing both undergrad and grad at the same Ivy will likely hurt you in the job market when applying to institutions that aren't HYPS.
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</p>
<p>That's an interesting statement. I wonder if that has even been shown to be true, and in particular, whether the academic job market even cares about where you did your undergrad degree.</p>
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However, doing both undergrad and grad at the same Ivy will likely hurt you in the job market when applying to institutions that aren't HYPS.
[/quote]
[quote]
That's an interesting statement. I wonder if that has even been shown to be true, and in particular, whether the academic job market even cares about where you did your undergrad degree.
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</p>
<p>It will certainly raise eyebrows. Again, Google or ask around. It implies a person is not a well-rounded researcher, fair or not.</p>
<p>Of course, this matters more in the humanities than in STEM fields, and it matters less in HYPS.</p>
<p>There was a study done a few years ago which concluded that undergrad institution did matter, at least in economics -- differential undergraduate origin was correlated with better job outcomes among students in the same top PhD programs.</p>
<p>The paper is [url=<a href="http://www.aeaweb.org/annual_mtg_papers/2007/0105_0800_0603.pdf%5Dhere%5B/url">http://www.aeaweb.org/annual_mtg_papers/2007/0105_0800_0603.pdf]here[/url</a>] (PDF).</p>
<p>This paper, of course, doesn't show that job search committees are explicitly concerned with an applicant's undergraduate alma mater. But it shows that something about attending a top undergraduate school serves a student well, even after a top PhD education.</p>
<p>(Anecdotally, I feel this is true in my PhD program -- the students from top undergraduate programs tend to pick hot labs that publish in the top journals. I don't think this is a selective effect, because my program has enough professors that it's not usually difficult to get into a particular lab for your thesis.)</p>
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Again, Google or ask around.
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</p>
<p>Uh, since you raised the assertion, I think it is only fair that you provide the data. I don't think that's my job, as I am not the one who asserted the statement. </p>
<p>
[quote]
There was a study done a few years ago which concluded that undergrad institution did matter, at least in economics -- differential undergraduate origin was correlated with better job outcomes among students in the same top PhD programs.</p>
<p>The paper is here (PDF).</p>
<p>This paper, of course, doesn't show that job search committees are explicitly concerned with an applicant's undergraduate alma mater. But it shows that something about attending a top undergraduate school serves a student well, even after a top PhD education
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, but the question on the table is whether going to the same undergrad program (whether a top one or not) as your grad program will hurt you in terms of job outcome. Maybe we can ask the authors to rerun the regression to see whether there is a significant effect. Or, heck, to give the dataset to me and I'll do the regression.</p>
<p>Right, that study only answers the question you asked -- whether search committees are concerned with undergraduate origin at all -- and not whether same grad/undergrad matters.</p>
<p>As someone who did both masters and undergrad at Harvard and is now applying to PhD programs, with Harvard as one of my top choices, I can tell you what my (Harvard tenured faculty) advisors have told me:</p>
<p>a) Applying to a Ph.D. program from an undergrad program can help you <em>if</em> your undergrad experience has allowed you to find champions on the faculty. Having a few people on your committee who know and believe in your work is a major plus.</p>
<p>b) What's more, surveys have suggested that letters of recommendation from faculty known to your admissions committee are significantly more convincing than letters from faculty unknown to your committee. Attending a top undergrad program makes it more likely that your recommenders will be known to faculty at other schools, which helps your chances somewhat.</p>
<p>c) On the other hand, it's usually seen as a negative to be too narrowly limited to a single university. </p>
<p>Obviously, these three factors weigh against each other somewhat, as they tend to have opposite influences on your chances.</p>
<p>More significantly, though, I can tell you that low-ish grades from an Ivy League undergraduate program are not perceived to be significantly better in any way than low-ish grades from another program. I have a 3.45 cum undergrad, due largely to terrible senior year grades resulting from family circumstances, and I am scrambling to compensate for them. I have been told that even my 3.87 in my master's and my strong GREs may not compensate for that 3.45 when I am applying to top programs...and that, in spite of the fact that I came out of a top program. It seems clear to me that it is much, much better to have a high GPA from a lesser-known school than to have a so-so, or even a pretty good, GPA from a highly-known school. I speak from experience.</p>
<p>As someone who did coursework both at the University of Colorado and at Northwestern University before taking courses at Harvard, I will say that I found it to be much more time-consuming to get good grades at Harvard, and I wish that admissions committees would take those differences into account, but it seems they don't, at least not very much.</p>
<p>I would say that you shouldn't worry about coming from a so-so school: worry more about getting recommendations from someone with a name in your field, and about getting good test scores, and above all getting a strong GPA. If you hit those three targets, I think you will be fine, and not coming from an Ivy should hurt you very little if at all.</p>