<p>What sort of stats (UG GPA and GRE) do I need to get into UPenn's graduate school? I'm interested in the PhD program in music composition.</p>
<p>I imagine your likelihood of acceptance hinges on your composition submission(s). Where did you do your undergrad? I assume your theory/composition background is extensive? I would email Jay Reise, as he is the graduate chair of the department.</p>
<p>Thanks wayward, will do!</p>
<p>I’m currently attending a very well known east coast American conservatory, majoring in composition. I have a 3.5 GPA, and haven’t taken the GREs yet but am a bit worried that my very focused but narrow conservatory education hasn’t really prepared me well enough for the style of test that the GRE is.</p>
<p>Which conservatory? Not gonna lie, Penn’s PhD program in composition seems weak to me and hasn’t really been anything special since the Crumb days of about 15 years ago. </p>
<p>Also, don’t sweat the GREs. I really think your level of composition will be the deciding factor.</p>
<p>any suggestions regarding writing samples, papers, for composition grad schools–not all of them require papers? None of my courses, undergrad, are paper courses, although I will have plenty of compositions ready.</p>
<p>Again, I would say your compositions will decide your fate and that the other components are of minimal importance. (Still, don’t blow them off!)</p>
<p>Just wondering why you think Penn’s program is weak, wayward_trojan. Are you a doctoral student in composition at Penn? Have you already completed a doctorate in composition there or elsewhere? Do you currently teach music composition at the college level? Have you received any music composition degrees from any top institutions? I just want to have some perspective for your comments. Thanks!</p>
<p>His comment is most likely because Penn’s undergrad music department doesn’t seem that strong.</p>
<p>From what I could dig up, Penn’s PHD in composition is actually pretty great.</p>
<p>mrmemory: No need to get cheeky. The answer to your questions is obviously no, but none of those are necessary criteria for judging a composition program. I’ve interacted with several Penn composers and seen composition programs elsewhere (and am a musician), so take my advice or leave it. By all means, come to Penn.</p>
<p>I’m going to be a [super] senior at Penn majoring in music this fall and have been there since 2008 after transferring from the BM program at USC-Thornton School of Music. I’ve had several PhD composers as TAs as well as taken graduate musicianship with several of them, and they frankly didn’t seem that strong either in terms of their general musicianship (i.e., aural skills, dictation) or knowledge of the repertoire. I’ve studied with Jay Reise and James Primosch, and to be quite honest, the former was very suspect in his knowledge of basic harmony (while the latter was absolutely brilliant). (I haven’t worked with Anna Weesner, but I’ve heard very good things.) I’m sure that there are in fact very solid PhD candidates there who are doing meaningful work and are getting good gigs/commissions/etc., but but there seems to be a total lack of interest by the University in either helping composers premiere their works (not surprising given the lack of competent, willing instrumentalists at Penn) or supporting new music performances other than token recitals on the fourth floor of Fisher Bennett a few times every year. (I’ve never heard any large ensembles [e.g., orchestra, wind ensemble, choir] premiere new works in my years here. Maybe I will this year?) Furthermore, the students (other than the composers) don’t even take an interest in new music at Penn. </p>
<p>TevashSzat: Penn’s undergraduate music program is very weak. I assure you, it’s not a question of whether it seems that way or not. When school starts, I’d love to hear your justifications in person, especially considering you’re not even that close to being done with the major (assuming you’re a music major/minor) given your front-loaded Vagelos requirements. (Though I wonder if you’re that guy I had a debate with about Theory IV in Hillel last semester…) I have to be honest, though, I don’t know precisely what you mean by “pretty great” with respect to composition programs. (Similarly, I’m interested to know what you dug up and from where/whom.) IMHO, I would think having willing and able musicians at your disposal as well as various and frequent performance opportunities on and off campus would be qualities of an ideal program. Frankly, I haven’t been given any reason to believe that Penn can or will ever offer that to its composers. Having been at USC for two years and been relatively active in working with composers on new projects/premieres/etc., I can tell you that the difference is many orders of magnitude in practically every way. I think the ideal environment for a composer is a conservatory where you have access to a lab orchestra and various other ensembles which regularly and competently can premiere your works (not to mention a composition/theory faculty twice the size of Penn’s Department). All I’ve seen at Penn are small chamber/solo pieces, some of which are very compelling and interesting, but it’s always a challenge for people to find musicians and again, it doesn’t seem that Penn would be an ideal place for someone looking for a career in composition. It will likely give you the skills (one would hope…) necessary to undertake your musical vision, but to get into festivals and other programs (which in turn help you leverage connections to get commissions), you need to have a lot of your work recorded and frequently, which is a major obstacle at a school where there is one high-school-level orchestra that isn’t in the habit of serving as a lab orchestra for composers.</p>
<p>I know I trash on Penn’s BA music program a lot, and it’s not because I’m miserable there or that there are no talented musicians or professors (because there are, obviously!). It’s because I have the perspective of two years at a conservatory-level university BM program and can see this program for what it is and is not. It is a great way to be exposed to music and have a broad grasp of the craft, but it just can’t give you much more than that as an undergrad (as other programs can). My objective has changed from an MM in orchestral conducting to a JD, so, needless to say, I’m much more Zen about it now (but will still give fair warning to prospective BA music students looking for anything other than an interesting major). If you want to analyze Ravel and Debussy with Roman numerals and never touch counterpoint in your undergrad, by all means, come to Penn.</p>
<p>OP: I would email the faculty members (mentioned above) and talk to people who currently are PhDs to get a sense of what it’s like from someone in the program. The website is very misleading and lists courses that haven’t been offered in years, so do your homework and talk to people at Penn and other places to get a good comparison.</p>
<p>@wayward_trojan</p>
<p>My remark was attributed to some posts on a quite long CC thread that I somehow dug up a while ago…I’m not saying that Penn’s undergrad music department is great by any stretch of the imagination, have had some markedly mediocre experiences so far…hmm, can’t seem to dig the thread back up again, but some people did list Penn’s grad composition as being decent.</p>
<p>Thank you for all the info on how to evaluate a graduate composition program. I am trying to develop a list of grad schools for masters in composition (receiving a BS in music). Want to stay in the North East. Interested in conservatories and universities. Funding will be an issue, I am trying to find out which schools give out the most funding.
Any suggestions of grad schools? What about Princeton, Columbia, NYU, versus the usual conservatories?</p>
<p>@wayward_trojan</p>
<p>It’s clear you think that a conservatory is the best place for students wanting to go into composition. However, I am just starting to pursue an interest in composition, so I don’t really have much of a portfolio, so I wouldn’t be able to get into any good conservatories (at least in my opinion). I have played piano for 10 years but even my performance resume is probably not nifty enough to get me into a conservatory. So, my question is what top city-based universities or liberal arts colleges (non-conservatory) do you think have better composition programs?</p>