Hello everyone!
I know this question has been asked a lot, but I didn’t find one for Physics in particular.
Does it matter where did you go to school for your undergraduate for the admission to Top PhD programs?
To be more precise, does a 3.7+ GPA student with research experience at a top 30 college have less chance to get into a Phd Program than a same exact student that went to a top 10 school?
When I say “top phd program” I mean in the top 20 (MIT, Stanford, Cornell, UMich, UCLA, UCB, UCSB… Etc etc)
What about overseas PhD programs? Does it matter where you did the undergad if you want to appy to Oxford? Cambridge?
It seems intuitively sensible that if you were coming from (say) a top 10 university that has a big range of physics options and lots of substantial research opportunities, and you took advantage of those opportunities that you would have a stronger background and better odds.
On the other hand, my D is currently a 3rd year physics student in what is probably a top-30 LAC and was told by her advisor that a strong student from her school should be looking at top 20 grad schools. She has done paid physics research during the summers (with 2 publications so far), and is doing research during this term, and will continue it in the autumn. She also has great recommendations from people who really know her. Although her (physics) course options are not as many and varied as they would be at a bigger school she has taken all the ‘core’ courses and taking the PGRE this month. Obviously, she hasn’t been accepted to a top-20 program yet, but assuming she does well on the PGRE she has all the ingredients.
UK unis work a little differently. In the US you usually go straight into a PhD program, picking up the Masters along the way, and the whole thing is underwritten. In the UK you typically do a Masters (often, but not necessarily as a continuation of the undergrad degree), then apply to do a PhD. It is not uncommon to already have talked to your prospective supervisor about research interests and how you would work together, what funding is available, etc. before you submit a formal application. Your undergrad place is less important than the work/research you have done and how it fits with the research being done there.
We should expect that the “exact same student” should have a higher GPA (at least within the major) from the top 30 school than the top 10 school. After all, the HYPSMC students are competing for A’s with math/physics olympiad winners. (Of course, research experience and rec letters are more important than GPA for PhD admissions).
PhD programs are incredibly small (maybe 10-25 new students per year) and the majority of students are not coming from U.S. universities. In any given year, a top 10 physics PhD program may not even accept any students outside the top 10 schools, since there may only be a handful of incoming American students.
@goldenbear2020, there is certainly a high % of international students in physics (notably from India and China, but many other countries as well), but I think that is overstating it a bit.
My D has been looking up the graduate students at the top 20 programs (she’s trying to work out which ones have higher % of women- turns out the range is bigger than she expected), and in the process has noticed that some programs are notably more international than others- but all have more than a ‘handful’ of US students. Of the ones that provide the undergrad colleges they are pretty diverse (not a robust sample, as most don’t provide that info, but all she has to go on). She has also done REUs at 2 of the top schools, and worked with their grad students, and confirms that they came from a variety of colleges (not just top 10).
Unfortunately, for some areas, pedigree makes a huge difference. Example: suppose you are in theoretical physics, and you get a letter of recommendation that’s good from an academic rockstar (let me pick Leonard Susskind for fun), it’s going to make a huge impact. And most of those academic rockstars are @ the very top schools. Just look at any grad theory physics department @ a top school and pretty much everyone graduated from top 10 schools (Harvard, MIT, Princeton, caltech etc…)
Thank you all for your responses.
If what you guys are saying is true, then I am a bit worried… For the sake of clarity, I’m going to be specific.
I was accepted to both UC Davis and Boston University. I still do not know where to attend but I’m leading toward Davis for many reasons.
My goal is to get into a top PhD program in Theoretical Physics. So you guys are telling me it would be VERY DIFFICULT because I did not graduate from the top 10 schools? Not even if I’ll have plenty of research experiences and a great GPA?
Btw, I am an international student.
I know what are you might be saying now… “Don’t worry about grad school… you are just an incoming freshman…” Well, sorry, but I do worry about it, I’m really focused to be a theoretical physicist because is my passion, so I want to plan everything in advance.
Actually, I am going to tell you to settle down, not b/c you are an incoming freshman, but b/c you have the wrong end of the stick. The other posters are pointing out (correctly) that coming from a top 10 undergrad has advantages. That much should be obvious.
But no, if you are not coming from a top 10 undergrad the door to a top 20 program is not shut to you. And, yes, your research, GPA,PGRE, GRE and recommendations will.
Your real question is: will UC-D or BU make a difference as to what level of Phyics grad program I can get into? and my answer is I don’t really know, b/c I don’t know those specific programs well enough. Some questions you can ask include how easy is it for undergrads to get research opportunities- and how early on? What is the placement in grad schools like at each place? But overall, I don’t see anything that would make me think that your odds would be higher from one or the other. It really will be a lot about what you do in college.
This is a good question – and relevant to me, because my son is interested in studying Physics – and going on to grad school, and possibly attending a smaller, LAC. That said, I don’t have any direct, first-hand experience to answer. Like you say, it’s come up before – and I have seen it mentioned that it can make a difference in fields like Mathematics and Economics, where the grad schools are concerned with how rigorous the undergrad courses were. But I haven’t seen that mentioned for Physics. Maybe that means that physics courses tend to be more standard and generally rigorous at most schools. I did chat with a Physics Ph.D. friend about it – he attended Big 10 schools – and he didn’t seem to think it was a big issue. There are some Physics Ph.D.'s on these forums, it would be nice to hear more directly from them.
@csdad, if this is helpful, here is a place that lists the schools that are tops at producing students going on to a PhD in different areas, including Physics.
@intparent: Thanks for that pointer. I have seen such lists. They’re definitely helpful, but they don’t get into which grad schools, or which tiers of grad schools, the students are going on to. I haven’t seen lists or posts with that level of granularity. That’d be nice, but at this point, I’m not too concerned about this question – it doesn’t seem to be such a big issue for Physics. And we are already considering the quality of Physics departments at schools – e.g., their size, reputation, where they rank on lists like the ones you linked to.
Will give you a little anecdata… this dates back to 1990. Coming from Wash U, which at the time was generally ranked top 30 but not top 15, I got into almost every phd program I applied to (Berkeley, UIUC, Wisconsin, Cornell, Ohio State…and I picked those programs mostly because they were tops in the particular subtopic I was interested in at the time …experimental solid state). I was only turned down for Stanford (applied physics). I chose Berkeley. In my entering class, I’m trying to remember where all other students were from… Cornell, U of Nebraska, UCSB, UCB, U Chicago, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, UIUC, plus some overseas schools. That’s just the ones I hung out with the most. So lots of kids from the big name schools, but definitely still do-able from any decent undergrad program.
There aren’t THAT many grad programs in Physics (I know because my D is a junior who is looking at them now). And grad school isn’t entirely about the prestige of the college name – it is whether you can get the experience you want in the specialty you want, which counts for a lot in post-grad school prospects. (@Washugrad, experimental solid state is also my kid’s interest). But trust me – those colleges listed on the top 10 for physics PhD feeders are pretty much all putting students into very, very good institutions. Lawrence might be slightly lower than the rest in the target PhD programs, but still very respectable (Lawrence was one of my D’s safeties, she is at another one of the schools on the list).
OP, since you have narrowed it down to 2, it is relatively easy to follow up with each college career office and physics department. Find out how many physics majors they are graduating, and ask how many have gone on to PhD programs, and what programs those are for the past few years. I would think the departments or career offices would have some of that info.
@intparent I’m in fact checking which school would give me more Research Opportunities. I also contacted some professors at both school, to have a general idea of the enviroment. Right now I think UC-D would be a better choice, especially for the physics program they have that seems a bit better and more focused. Thank you very much for your advices!
My kid applied for an REU there this summer (withdrew her app when she got a good opportunity with a prof at her own college). They looked to have a solid Physics program there.
