<p>The prep will not - cannot - be the same. You could standardize the names of the required courses, but that is about it. You just cannot expect the average student at State U with an 1100 SAT to keep up with someone who had 1500 SATs and a lot of academic drive. Sure there will be some and those are the ones likely to apply and be accepted for graduate schools.</p>
<p>Course requirements for degrees are pretty similar across the board. Course content is what may differ from poor schools to the really tough ones.</p>
<p>An interesting fact - we are all aware that 12 credits per semester is considered full time - which affects many things - financial aid - insurance coverage, etc......... I have to say that I like this fact in the NC state college system - they recognize the 12 credit quota - but HIGHLY recommend a minimum of 15 credits - avaeraged over 8 semesters - with the possibility of a summer session required to complete the 122 - 125 credit requirement for graduation - this will pretty much guarantee a 4 year graduation.</p>
<p>BUT....... when you add in changing majors, adding double major or more?!?!?!? - etc... and all that is mentioned above - there is NO way for a 4 year graduation.</p>
<p>The first time my kiddo went to see her advisor about her major - she was told - ooo kiddo - 4 years is not possible for this major!!!!!!! I was very upset to say the least - to automatically assume that a BS will take 4+ - no matter what the circumstances. Being out-of-state student - would automatically mean at least an extra semester - if not an extra full year - I don't think so!!! The ONLY way to accomplish this major in 4 years - per the advisor - was to get every single class - according to the 4 year plan - when it was supposed to be taken per the plan - any diversions would not allow for a 4 year graduation. Being one of the most demanding majors - one taken by many pre-meds/pre-health care students - and at a good sized university - this would be the challange of a life-time LOL.</p>
<p>Ultimately - after a year in the major - thankfully - (to us at least LOL) - the kiddo decided to change direction - WHEW!!!!! And it does look as tho she may finish in 4 years - but that is not engraved in granit yet - cuz of a required internship for a full semester - which will depend on where and when of course.</p>
<p>I get the feeling that alot of folks are now thinking that college has moved from that 4 years completion to more of a 5 year one - uugghhhhh!!!!! Me thinks I want to send that bill for that extra to the advisor!!! </p>
<p>IMHO - a double major may be worth pursuing - if it can be accomplished in the appropriate amount of time - but to me - a masters would actually be the better route to go - and maybe 2 masters if one is really pushing it - but the double/triple major thing to me just seems the wrong direction to go. Another consideration is that many schools charge for credits over a certain amount differently than regular credits as well.</p>
<p>"She needs to average 22 credits/semester to finish in 5 years."</p>
<p>Year 5 44 credits to graduate
Year 4 88 credits to graduate
Year 3 132 credits to graduate
Year 2 176 credits to graduate
Year 1 220 credits to graduate</p>
<p>Sheesh, how many credits does your D's school require for a "standard" major. I never counted by I believe I only need 96 credits or the equivalent of 32 classes over 4 years. I understand she will have double majors or two degrees, but that is a whole lot of classes ... unless there is a different scale for the credits.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thanks for mentioning that. Here's the link for people like me who read the NYT online: </p>
<p>"She needs to average 22 credits/semester to finish in 5 years."</p>
<p>Sorry to say this - but.....this is absurd!!!!!!! many courses for double/eek - triple major are the same - and I would surely be looking in the extra costs involved in anything over 130!!!!! May be a better idea to do double major and then masters in something - probably cost wise would be cheaper - and mental health wise also. Or does this kid plane on carrying 18 per semester and the other 4 during summer sesssions - that would be possible - but I bet the cost will be rediculous still. IMHO I would surely be looking at this from a different direction and consider the kids mental health to do this as well.</p>
<p>BARRONS - LOL - I would just call that person a ''professional student'' LOL</p>
<p>Edad and Barrons---I think the content across schools can be pretty much the same. I know that the text used to teach personality psychology at a top 50 LAC is the same used at the flagship state university. The kids who have 2100 SAT's and go to the LAC on average will master 90% of the material. The kids with 1600 SAT's at the state u will average a 75%mastery. Maybe in the best possible scenario the content will be the same and the grades, based on mastery, will be different.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>The NYT has a front page piece on a guy at UW-Whitewater now in his 12th or so year of college<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Sounds like a fun career. How does one get a gig like that?</p>
<p><em>shrug</em> This time next year, I'll be a super-senior...and it's going to take me 6 years to graduate.
The way college is over here, if you change major (I changed after my 3rd year) most of your previous coursework counts for NOTHING, unless the work is duplicated. This is my 4th year in college, I'm taking 2nd year courses. Sometimes I wish we had the US system, because then I could take courses over the summer and get this degree finished in 5 years. Not graduating in 4 years can happen to anyone... in high school I was 1st in my graduating class!</p>
<p>To the multiple people debating quality of programs/classes offered at generic State U and selective LAC:</p>
<p>The general courses are the same EVERYWHERE! Calc 1 is Calc 1, regardless of where you go, community college or Harvard...they use the same text and cover the same material. I see a possible difference in how well the student can practically apply the material and how much of a curve is placed on the course. </p>
<p>An example, I attended a pretty prestigious geology field camp held through Boston University. There were students from universities ranging from local State U that probably only 5% of the country has ever heard of to near-ivy/7 sisters colleges. I was very worried that I wouldn't be able to compete with the Bryn Mawr, WUSTL, Vanderbilt crowd since they were more 'prestigious' universities than Pitt (especially in geology!). Moreover, I had only the bare minimum course requirements completed for the field camp, and most students had already completed all of the core courses in geology. Well, I was flat out wrong! Yes I worked harder than a good chunk of the students at field camp and had to overcome some obstacles as a result of my lack of major classes...however, I had the 3rd highest grade of 24 students at the camp. Pittsburgh gave me the resources to learn the material just as well as any LAC would have given me. </p>
<p>The main difference between State U and a premiere LAC is the opportunity for personalized undergraduate reserach, not class material imo.</p>
<p>But as for the main topic at hand:</p>
<p>As for the 4-year v. 5+ year plan...it really depends on the student. I went into college planning on being there for 5 years, but switching from a dual degree program to a single BS degree I graduated in 4 years. I did have to take a full summer between my junior and senior year, but this is common in geology because it is the most reasonable time to get in your field camp requirement (unless you want to go to Australia and take off a spring semester...). </p>
<p>My sister hasn't been as lucky...she's on geez probably a 7-year plan now with the possibility of switching schools so she can major in Phys. Ed instead of Elem. Ed. It all depends on your situation and stuff out of your control...If it bothers the parents, put it out on the table and say that you only pay for x dollars or x years and the rest is up to you with personal savings/loans...that's what my parents did from the start and it's working out well for them and us kids!</p>
<p>For those debating the MS+BS v. multiple bachelors route:</p>
<p>I do think that a master plus bachelor is much better than the double degree/triple degree route. A masters shows that you have dedication for a subject and I believe will show employers that you are committed to staying in your chosen field for your career. </p>
<p>However, I do see some merit in completing double/triple degrees in specialized cases. For example: I had a friend who tacked on her 3rd degree objective senior year so she would be eligible for a Truman Scholarship to go to Princeton Law, she won the Truman and all is well...she did it for a purposeful reason which luckily panned out. Additionally, I see merit in completing dual majors with business and such, since it is very handy for everyone to know a little bit about the business world (I even contemplated a MS/MBA program for a little while...).</p>
<p>For everyone:</p>
<p>College should be a personally challenging experience that should be taken at one's own pace. Trying to accomplish everything quickly is great if that's the type of person you are...but if it takes awhile for everything to sink in and process everything its better to take it slowly so you ensure you actually place the subject matter of your major into your long-term memory rather than forgetting it all within 5 years.</p>
<p>That's my 2 cents at least...</p>
<p>Link to NY Time's Article on a "Student In his 12th (Yes 12th!!!) year of college.
<a href="http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051110110409990002&ncid=NWS00010000000001%5B/url%5D">http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051110110409990002&ncid=NWS00010000000001</a> Opps, this was already posted above.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Truman Scholarship to go to Princeton Law
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Princeton has a law school?</p>
<p>Yes, the 22 credits/semester for 10 semesters are required. These are regular semester credits with at least 2/3rds of the courses taken by hundreds of other students. This is a unique program with its own admission requirements. There are actually quite a few programs which require 5 years but I had never heard of anything quite so rigorous. My D wanted to get the most out of college and wanted a challenge. She certainly has a challenge. Only about 1/3 of the enrolled students complete this program. Most quit within the first year. I am concerned because her SATs and grades put her in the bottom quartile. She is only a few months into the program so it is too early to tell if she will continue. My guess is she will finish. So far she is happy and she is even more stubborn than I am. </p>
<p>In terms of the costs, there is that 5th year to pay for. There are no added charges for the extra courses so I guess I can consider it a good deal for the money. She is also doing 10-12 hours/week of work study and is responsible for $10k/year in work or loans. Will it be worth it in the long run, assuming she completes the program? I don't know, but it is pretty hard to say no to a kid who is willing to work that hard.</p>
<p>Edad, it may have been easier to share that one of the degrees pursued by your daughter is not a typical one. This is from a site you will easily recognize:</p>
<p>
[quote]
A Bachelor of Music (BM) degree is far more specialized than a BA, and, to repeat, its focus is typically on musical performance. In a BM program, the word "major" refers to a musical subject or performance area (clarinet, voice, piano, music theory, etc.). A "double major" for a music student in a BM program might be, say, piano and music history.</p>
<p>The ratio of musical to non-musical study contained in a Bachelor of Music program is roughly the reverse of the ratio for a BA program at a liberal arts college. That is, roughly three-quarters of the credits are in music performance and musical academics (theory, eartraining, etc.), and one quarter are in traditional liberal arts subjects. This ratio differs from school to school, and can approach fifty-fifty at some universities where there are university-wide course requirements.</p>
<p>The Bachelor of Music degree certifies a level of knowledge about music and also a level of performance ability, but the performance level is not the same for all schools offering the degree. Here's why. Entrance to a BM program is usually by audition, and competition for available space at the better known music schools tends to drive the required entrance level upward. It follows that the exit (graduation) level of performance will be higher for students that go to these schools. Over a period of decades, the more selective schools earn a well deserved reputation for turning out high-level performers. This serves to attract even higher level performers to these schools, which enhances the effect.</p>
<p>This brings us to the subject of "double degree" programs. Double degree programs typically take five years to complete, and lead to two pieces of paper-a BA or BS in a liberal arts subject, and a BM in music. Double degree programs are available in all kinds of settings, and at all kinds of schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>How does one get a gig like that?</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Inherit the right parents? :)</p>
<p>One overlooked aspect of stretched out graduations is the loss of community. At schools with high four-year graduation rates students move forward in the same cohort and, I suspect, develop closer and more long-lasting friendships.</p>
<p>In the grand scheme of life, this may not be a big deal; nevertheless, I think the undergrad experience is diminished a bit if everyone is on a different track.</p>
<p>No law school at Princeton!</p>
<p>No law school...however, they have joint law programs ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
One overlooked aspect of stretched out graduations is the loss of community. At schools with high four-year graduation rates students move forward in the same cohort and, I suspect, develop closer and more long-lasting friendships.
[/quote]
This is a very important observation, Roger. It certainly applies to highly structured and hierarchical programs, such as the art school that my daughter attended. Each entering class "bonds" through its "common struggle": the foundation program. At RISD, they make a point of scrambling the studio enrollments from the first semester to the next so that students get to know a larger number of classmates; and the requirement that all freshmen live on campus adds to the sense of class membership. In second year, when students begin the foundation courses in their major field, this entering class in painting, industrial design (or whatever) also tends to bond by class and not just by major. Of course the students do get to interact and take courses with students from other majors and other years, but the sense of class year tends to remain.</p>
<p>Yuck! I think it's bad that a student should be allowed to profit from being in school for 12 years. Don't understand why he should be allowed ton continue & don't really understand why he should be considered a "celebrity." Sorry, it seems very selfish & immature to me, from many perspectives.</p>