<p>Jkolko, ok, you want facts; thus, here is a fact: US News and World Report. "Best Graduate Schools" for the year 2005 at page 87 rates RISD graduate program as number 1. CMU is rated at number 6, which is still terrific. Any questions?</p>
<p>Sure, here's a question. Why are you so focused on "rankings"? </p>
<p>Nearly every one of your posts discusses the "top school" in a category. To quote from the AIGA: "Rankings can be useful in a variety of contexts. However, it should be understood that rankings usually represent a compilation of subjective opinions about an institution's past achievements rather than an in-depth review of its total capacity for quality work." You seem to have fallen eagerly into the open arms of the mass media; perhaps you should take a step back and consider:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Clarke, Marguerite. "Weighing Things Up: A Closer Look at the U.S. News and World Report's Ranking Formulas." College and University Journal. v79 n3 (Winter 2004): p. 3-9. This analysis examines two criticisms commonly leveled against the U.S. News ranking methodology: that the weight-and-sum method arbitrarily weighs certain factors higher than others, and that the "false precision" of overall scores creates the impression of fine distinctions among schools where none may actually exist. It finds empirical support for both of these criticisms through statistical analysis, and concludes with suggestions for "improving the interpretability and usefulness of the rankings," including reevaluating the weighting system and doing away with the single overall score. You may want to actually go read the methodology considered by US News; their rankings are based upon a weighted scale that includes, among other things, attrition rate of freshman students (ranked at 25% of the total score!), faculty salary (7%), average ACT score (7.5%), financial aid (10%), and "alumni giving rate" (5%). Are these really useful information to you and your daughter? Things that would matter more to ME would include "quality of student work upon leaving the program", "job placement assistance with regard to career fairs and company contacts", "diverse faculty personalities and skillsets", "overall commitment of students to their work", "does the campus vibe and attitude actually mesh with your personality", "how well does the school mesh with industry", and other qualitative things that generally can't be measured in numbers. </p></li>
<li><p>Hossler, Don and Erin M. Foley. "Reducing the Noise in the College Choice Process: The Use of College Guidebooks and Ratings." New Directions for Institutional Research. n88 (Winter 1995): p.21-30. "The limited research available and the observations and experiences of admissions officers suggest that guidebooks and ratings have a small to negligible impact on most students considering colleges and universities." (from New Directions for Institutional Research)</p></li>
<li><p>"One apparently robust finding of our study is that student retention is directly related to the average standardized test scores of the incoming freshmen. When test scores of incoming students are controlled for, factors such as student faculty ratio, faculty salary, and university's educational expenses per student are all independent of graduation rates, and, therefore, do not seem to directly influence student retention" (from <a href="http://www.pitt.edu/%7Edruzdzel/abstracts/wis95.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.pitt.edu/~druzdzel/abstracts/wis95.html</a>)</p></li>
<li><p>"'You can't quantify the important things,'' says Edward B. Fiske, author of ''The Fiske Guide to Colleges.'</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Some more reading material is available at <a href="http://www.reac.useic.ru/?page=617%5B/url%5D">http://www.reac.useic.ru/?page=617</a></p>
<p>Get over the ratings. The only way to truly understand a school is to visit it. </p>
<p>ps, CMU as an entity was rated number 22 nationally, in the same "survey" you cited, beating Tufts, Brandeis, Tulane, etc. What does that mean? (hint: it doesn't mean anything at all!)</p>
<p>jkolko - thank you for trying to explain the problem with the attitude in taxguy's posts. This has bothered me for a long time. The reports on his visits, his "takes" on what he has seen, toilet paper and all, have been interesting and informative, and I applaud him for all his time and effort and concern. However, he often states what he considers the 'final word' on every school, especially when advising others, and this is where it all becomes misleading and erroneous. Taxguy, I know a lot, trust me, based on personal experience, but I wouldn't begin to advise people so strongly because it is not simply as black and white as you present everything. I just mean this to be a help to all who read these posts. Your opinion and experience are one thing......... but making blanket statements about schools based mostly on rankings is another. Please hear us and think about this - thanks.</p>
<p>Jkolko asks."Why are you so focused on "rankings"?"</p>
<p>Response: I am not;however, you questioned my factual statement that RISD was rated as number one in the country in graphic design. I simply wanted to show you the basis for my factual statement.</p>
<p>However. as to rankings, I don't go by the overall rankings at all. I look at several factors in the rankings:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Peer review: This is what other professors of the subject think of this school. This, in my opinion, is the most important factor in US News and World Report rankings.</p></li>
<li><p>Freshmen return rate: This stat indicates how much students appreciate the school.</p></li>
<li><p>6 Year graduation rate: This may or may not indicate school quality. However, if there is a very low graduation rate in within 6 years, this could indicate a number of negative factors. For example, there could be a strong weed out process or kids may not like the school. This factor just requires some further investigation in my opinion .</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Jkolko, I do agree with you, however, that other factors should be considered such as job placement in graphic design, number of internships available,salary of average graduate after 5 years etc. The problem, however, is that these additional factors are not published for every school. In fact, I have rarely found this stats in any school. Thus, we have to rely on the ratings, such as US News and World report even with its imperfections. It is certainly better than nothing.</p>
<p>However, for both you and Modiam: I will say this again to make all my future statements clear: EVERYTHING SAID IS USUALLY BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AND OPINION AND BIASES. YOU SHOULD CERTAINLY VISIT SCHOOLS TO JUDGE FOR YOURSELF! Can I make this caveat clearer than this?</p>
<p>I should note that every review that I have posted on CC has a caveat simiilar to this on the bottom of each review as well. I should not have to post a caveat on every statement made. The caveat noted above should be implicit in all posts by eveyone. You, Jkolko, obviously have a bias towards CMU as either a student or almumni,but you don't see me yelling that you should post your bias in all of your posts.</p>
<p>fact, factors, factors, facts................... try a post without using those words, just as an exercise.</p>
<p>Modiam, talke a look at post numbers 30 and 35 and 39 found within this thread. I don't think that I used the words: "fact or factors" within those post, yet both Jkolko and you both are still complaining about them. The only time I used the word "fact" was to respond to Jkolko. I was citing the ranking from US News and World report on graphic design graduate programs, which was both factual and true, as far as the US News rankings go.</p>
<p>I'm not going to check old posts, but I believe you. I am merely responding to your attitude, coming off as authoritative probably without your knowing it........ rankings, this school beats that one in this or that. Sorry if I was wrong about you using the word "fact" a lot, but it sure seemed that way.<br>
This choosing a school thing - it's an art, not a science. It's all so subjuctive. You can't pick at every minute detail - it's a whole picture. I just don't think it is wise to so definitively educate people you don't know. Perhaps you just are unaware of how you come off. You are well meaning, it's clear.</p>
<p>Modiam notes,"This choosing a school thing - it's an art, not a science"</p>
<p>Response: I completely agree. If I came off as too authoritative or authoritarian, I humbly apologize. I do, however, try to research schools (especially schools with art programs) very thoroughly, and thus am probably more knowledgeable than most. However, I certainly don't want to imply that I am omniscient or always absolutely correct. I will attmpt to watch the tone of my posts in the future. Fair enough?
:)</p>
<p>Yes - very fair. Thanks.</p>
<p>I found researching schools for graphic design difficult because I know nothing about GD or art pgms for that matter. At our HS, teachers simply named the "famous" art schools in NY (we live nearby) or the colleges they attended. People implied that GD prgms were basically all the same. We found that wasn't true at all. There's a huge difference between a BA and a BFA (I didn't even know this to begin). But I think it's a personal choice which you go for. My d decided she wanted a BFA pgm and maybe go for a MBA later on, if she still is interested in advertising. Her cousin on the other hand prefers a BA. She wants a more liberal art background. Her parents love the huge core curriculums; my d dreads them. My niece isn't looking for "career" focus - feeling the BFA is too narrow. I respect her choice. It's her life. I do like hearing posts on how employers view the degree. It's good to get info from those doing the hiring. I remember when I was first working as a computer systems analyst, I began a MBA pgm. One of the VPs advised me to switch schools because none of the local colleges had pgms that were considered good enough by those high up. </p>
<p>My d started searching for "lists" of GD pgms and found a few (I think NASAD has one). These lists were merely a place to start since all types and sizes of schools were included. My d wound up eliminating schools because they were too small (not that they were inferior just not right for her). We compared the lists with World News to see where the schools were academically. Some had very low SAT/GPA requirements. This mattered to my d because she wanted a the academic level to be challenging and high enough to matter to employers (esp if she changed her major). </p>
<p>Some of the "stats" made us ask questions but not necessarily reject schools. According to World News, RIT has a low retention rate for freshman but upon visiting, we were told this isn't true for the GD dept. In general, perhaps some students don't like the environment; perhaps the classes/qtr system is more demanding than students expected/wanted. If anything, this ranking has scared her alittle and made her realize she needs to work hard to hold her own.</p>
<p>I think taxguy did his research in a similar manner, using these rankings as a guide. If you look at his d's list, her schools are all over the place, ranking wise (CMU, Towson, UMass Dartmouth). Obviously they were considering things other than the World News ranking. BTW, taxguy, my d also applied to Towson but the school was in turmoil at the time, building a new art bld I think. The dept was a mess and temporarily relocated. They did offer her a nice grant, making the cost lower than going to TCNJ (instate). </p>
<p>I used this board to get ideas from others, including taxguy. He expresses his opinions strongly, but so do most people around here. It's just his opinion and we don't always agree (haven't seen it as a problem). For instance, my d was accepted to Syracuse U but discovered 2 weeks before having to commit to the school that her dept was being moved downtown. Details were very sketchy to say the least. Taxguy got more info about the move which helped my d make her decision. SHE decided that wasn't the environment she wanted. She didn't want to take a bus off campus constantly, esp late at night. She still liked the school and the pgm. Taxguy's d is ok with the bus aspect and is considering the school. Good. That's the way it should be. The facts are known. It's up to the individual to see if the fit is right for them. I haven't felt any animosity that we disagree. We're here to help one another, right?</p>
<p>I think sometimes it's hard to verbablize what makes one school fit better than another. My d has some concerns about going to RIT, regarding the social fit, the cold, etc. But from the first visit, she clicked with something. I could just tell. She eliminated some of my choices early on because what mattered to me was immaterial to her. She wanted to like SU because she felt it would be more fun, etc. She wanted to dislike RIT because others were telling her it would be hell. But in the end, she went with her gut. She said she just clicked with the dept & teachers she met (on several visits). I don't think she can explain it. Other kids will feel differently, I'm sure.</p>
<p>Well said Jerzgrlmom, or maybe I should say "in my opinion, well said."</p>
<p>I would be VERY interested in your daughter's take on RIT. Specifically, I would like to know how she feels about the dorms, the other students that she interacts with, the professors, the studios and other facilities at RIT, and the amount and type of homework that she gets. Also, what she and her friends do for leisure there is important, and what other activities RIT has available. My daughter is very interested in RIT too.</p>
<p>You input, as soon as she gets an idea of these factors....er....developments, would be most appreciated.</p>
<p>Ok, taxguy, will do. She'll be living in the art house (one floor in Colby Hall). 2 types of rooms. Hers is small, long and skinny 10x18 (others are 12x14). Her roommate is from Seattle. Her schedule is pretty full. 3 studio classes, Writing & Lit, Computers (Rastor or Vector I forget), First Year Experience and a seminar where each week a different artist/professional talks about his experiences in the real world (exposing students to all aspects of design). Compared to her friends who have 4 classes, her schedule seems quite full with 7 classes. She even has a night class. 17 credits this quarter. I believe this will amount will continue each quarter. She was asked to join a learning community where about 20 students take 3 classes together - supposed to aide study groups, friendships, etc. Kind of like high school for her, where all the honor students had the same classes together. Not sure if it's better or not, but she heard good things about 2 of the 3 teachers so this ensures she will have them and keep them throughout the yr. She can also ask to leave the learning community if it doesn't work out.</p>
<p>As for the other stuff, I'll let you know. Her required art kit is quite extensive and requires 2 people to come pick it up. I've heard studio classes have projects due every 2 weeks, midterms are upon you before you know it and end of qtr is insane. My d is a procrastinator so this could definitely be a problem. The art house has its own studio so I'm hoping seeing other students working will keep her moving along.</p>
<p>Jerzgrlmom, funny that you mentioned Towson. I would love my daughter to go there since it is both instate and near us. However, you are so correct about Towson being in bit of a mess due to their moving to new facilities. I am waiting as long as possible for my daughter to see the school in the hope that they will be a bit more organized. I am sadly expecting my daughter, and probably us as well, to not like the school's graphic design program. It's too bad that there are so few schools that are strong in humanities and graphic design. For some reason the LACs seem to not have strong programs in graphic design. Most of them specialize in studio art and art history. (Sigh).</p>
<p>There really is a need for a good LAC to institute a strong design program too.The best I have seen is Skidmore, and Alfred University's program and both design program offerings aren't that comprehensive, although Alfred seems better at Skidmore at least for graphic design.</p>
<p>You guys need to back off of taxguy. He is one of the nicest and most generous members on CC. Go grind your axes elsewhere. »:T</p>
<p>taxguy - have you or your daughter ever looked into the graphic design department at U of Delaware? It's a BFA program that is very impressive and not widely known of. Worth looking into for graphics.</p>
<p>Modiam, actually we just looked at the University of Delaware, which had a great campus and very good facilities. </p>
<p>This is the first school that I and my wife couldn't agree on. I liked the program a lot, although it did come with a high tuition price tag for a state school ( about $24,000). However, my wife strongly didn't like the competitive nature of the design school. They take in about 100 or so kids and wash out 50% of them ( or about that number) by sophomore year, if I remember correctly.They then wash out about 40% of the remaining sophomores leaving about 30 kids for Junior year ( or was it 30 kids for senior year?). </p>
<p>In many design classes, they have three shelves for projects: the top shelf, which consists of about 5-8 projects ,are the top projects. The bottom shelf are the worst in the bunch and the middle is for everyone else. There is a lot of fierce competition among students and a lot of pressure. A good art student of Allie's teacher attends there and cries about it a lot. She is very stressed out all the time.</p>
<p>My wife also felt that design is a cooperative area of study. This type of competition doesn't' go on in design firms. Designers meet together and cooperatively try to formulate the best product. According to my wife, teamwork is the catch phrase among these firms. This is not as true with Delaware. They definitely have a different philosophy from that of other design programs. My wife is also afraid that putting these kids under this type of pressure cooker early on will make them hate design, which is another reason my wife doesn't like their program.</p>
<p>Personally, I don't see anything wrong with strict competition. To me it brings out the best in everyone. However, I am a competitive New Yorker and love the competition. My wife and daughter disagree. </p>
<p>Anyway, your suggestion is a good one, but my family didn't like the school for the reasons given.</p>
<p>I even remember the number of kids finally left in the design and communications program being more like only 17. Some end up switching to fine arts due to the intense nature of the program. They do stress, however that the design school is a team effort and the kids must be prepared to work together like they would in the real design world. They also take a big trip together to England during spring break - it is actually a very tight group and you have to like that.</p>
<p>I do like it Modiam, However, my wife would be even more adament against the school if she knew that 100 kids would be whiddled down to 17! </p>
<p>Yes, there is a great attempt by the school to try to get the students to participate in teamwork. They do take a trip to England for, I think, five weeks to meet with designers. It does sound rather nice.</p>
<p>However, when you, as a student, know that 85% of your class will be eliminated, this doesn't foster a lot of help from classmates. I did like the school nevertheless,but I got outvoted.</p>
<p>Jerzgrlmom, How far are the dorms from the academic building(s)? I heard that it was several blocks away.</p>
<p>taxguy,
The dorms at RIT are all lumped together on one side of campus and the academic buildings are on the other side (in between are the gym, ice skating rink, etc). A "quarter mile" walkway separates the two. In reality, I believe the quarter mile is actually a bit longer than that but don't quote me on that. My d's dorm is one of the closest to the academic side and the design buildings aren't as far as other majors. Looking at her schedule, seems all (but one) of her classes are in the same building.</p>
<p>My d considered UDel, but never got around to putting her portfolio online due to having mono (she just refused to do any more work once she did the first round of applications). If I remember correctly, she was accepted as "undeclared" because she had all the required paperwork done. But, she would have to pass the portfolio review to switch into the design program. I didn't know about the intense competition in the dept (they had contacted my d several times, encouraging her to submit her portfolio and I didn't get that impression).</p>
<p>I agree with taxguy's wife take on the competitive environment being detrimental at that early stage. In my design days (computer programming design), I was lucky to work with a cooperative group where we felt free to bounce ideas off one another. Problems were often solved with the help of everyone. In my opinion, fierce competition in a design area tends to lead to "taking all the credit" or "covering one's a..." I know schools use critiques to teach students how to evaluate and express one' s opinion but I thought the ultimate goal was to learn from one another and not to crucify each other. I don't get the shelf idea. Seems to be more like humiliation than encouragement..</p>
<p>My d wasn't thrilled with UDel's campus - she preferred a more enclosed campus. I graduated from UDel and it was quite a party school in my day as it's still known to be. What I remember were the large lecture halls with 100s of students in the bio, chem and calc classes and the TAs who spoke broken English. I was ok with that because I had tough classes in HS and didn't rely on being "taught." I can understand why so many of my friends had trouble learning calc in that environment. I know that design majors don't necessarily need to take those classes but these kids may change majors down the road. My d made sure she took lots of tough science and math courses (thru Calc) in HS, despite the HS art dept telling her it wasn't necessary.</p>