<p>i think there needs to be more of an effort to separate religion from politics (i'm jewish).</p>
<p>Hah. Like it or not, religion influences politics, and vice versa. Just look at our country. If a large swath of voters makes their choices on reasoning that pertains to their religious views, then politicians have no choice but to address that somehow, or else they will lose many constituents. I also believe religion and politics should be separate, but that idea has no grounding in reality (I'm Jewish too, that has no bearing on the value of your argument)</p>
<p>How is that Anti-Semetic? I don't believe that any state that claims itself to be only one religion has a right to exist. But in most cases, those countries/states have been established for many many years. Israel's establishment left kicked many natives out of their own land in order to give Jewish people a "homeland". It's absurb and ridiculous, and has brought more trouble than good since it's inception. One of the reason's we are hated so much by the rest of the Middle East is the US alliance with Israel. Wars and innocent people are dying every day in Israel/surrounding countries because crazy people(on both sides) are fighting over territory that cannot be proven to truly belong to either side. It's completely absurd to think that Israel is a good thing overall if you are not a Christian or Jew.</p>
<p>No. Stop.Mixing.Religion.With.Politics. It's wrong. All it does is cloud your judgment and make you look (or just be) ignorant. Why do religious people always need to follow one side, and put down others who think different? (with venom, too) What are you, sheep that must follow the cattle? Think a little.</p>
<p>Oh and I'm a religious jew, fyi.</p>
<p>On the topic with Israel, it's impossible not to bring up religion. I hope you aren't referring to me when you say follow one side, because I don't have a religion.</p>
<p>"I don't believe that any state that claims itself to be only one religion has a right to exist."</p>
<p>The problem here is that "Jewish state" refers not just to a religion, but also to a people.</p>
<p>No one questions the right of France to be French or the right of Japan to be a homeland for the Japanese.</p>
<p>Wow. Absolutely Brilliant.</p>
<p>Jewish does not equal Israeli. End of story.</p>
<p>Well, in fact all Jews can have Israeli citizenship if they want it, even if they declare that they are atheists, but that's neither here nor there, since that isn't what I claimed.</p>
<p>You are Japanese whether you are Buddhist, Shinto, or Christian. It's an ethnicity and a nationality. I will be an Ashkenazi Jew even if I get baptized tomorrow and become a Christian. I can change whether I follow the Jewish religion, but I cannot change my ethnicity and nationality.</p>
<p>Please people, do not even get me started about Palestinians. Yes, we know they deserve a state, but you realize that they are suffering from the pickle they have been in for the last 59 years because they made the wrong choices. The Arab States attacked Israel in 1948, not the other way around. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem decided to support the Nazi Regime during the War, and they abandoned their homes on the orders of their own leaders. For all these things the Palestinians were penalized, and their stake in the region was thrown into jeopardy. </p>
<p>Israel exists and will always exist as long as democracy is the prevailing model for government in the world. Jews have as much right to a nation as any other people. End of story.</p>
<p>P.S. Huey, no one said Jewish = Israeli. Its all in your head.</p>
<p>P.S.S. This is not what this thread is about anyway.</p>
<p>Oh, they didn't?</p>
<p>"The problem here is that "Jewish state" refers not just to a religion, but also to a people."-----The Jewish State is Israel, and this implies that all Jews are a people.</p>
<p>Stop comparing apples to oranges. Japan is a country. It is a clear nationality. Being Jewish is not. Please stop. There is no one country that Jews are all from, it's a religion, it's not a race.</p>
<p>And tokyo--Jews don't deserve their own country. Jewish people deserve to live in whatever country they want, but I don't think ANY religion deserves it's own country. Listen slowly now. ANY religion.</p>
<p>Huey you are wrong. No one said its a race, but there are clearly Jewish ethnic groups: Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Mizrahim are the "big three". This is why the Zionist movement began in Europe in the 19th century. Jews didn't want to be second class citizens in Prussia or Persia or the Ottoman Empire, they want to be first class citizens in their own nation.</p>
<p>By the way, your Japan analogy is particularly weak, especially because Japan is practically homogeneous. Why should Russia be one country? Why Spain, or China, or the United Kingdom? What is a "clear nationality"? If it is a population which shares a common language and cultural background, I think Jews circa. 1870 checked off on both of those. Most of the established countries I mentioned don't even share a common language. Of course between the "big three" Jewish ethnic groups there are differences, but they all have greater commonalities. </p>
<p>Once again for the thick of skull, no one said Jews are a race, stop making things up. Obviously you have no idea what "national self-determination" means, so go take a world history course and come back and talk to me then, or you can make another less-than-satisfactory rebuttal.</p>
<p>Tokyo, please don't assume I don't know about the Jewish ethnic groups. The point you are missing is that this does not make one Jewish for life. I know this is hard for you to see, but just ponder this for a moment. The Ashkenazi Jews all look similar or at least come from the same area..because they do. All of these Jews however, do not come from one place. They are not a nationality. They are not from one country. They are from a geographic region. An "Ashkenazi Jew" from Germany is not a Jewish-German. They are a German who practices the religion of Judaism, whose ancestors come from a general geographic regions. Jews(people who follow Judaism) left blah blah blah ok, I never said they didn't. However, this doesn't make them a nationality. </p>
<p>A Nationality has nothing to do with race, religion, or any other factor besides your ancestors or you live or are from there. You will not hear Christians calling themselves a Nationality, because they come from all over. As do people who practice Judaism. Just because there are 3 branches of Jews that come from a general area does not make them a nationality or race.</p>
<p>The ultimate thing here is that I find it ridiculous that Judaism claims it is anything more than a religion. Once one claims that they do not believe in Judaism, they are no longer a Jew.</p>
<p>Eh, I wouldn't say it's exactly that simple. Moreso, I suspect, than in many other religions, Judaism is a culture as well as a faith. I know a huge number of people who self-identify as Jewish atheists - they follow the holidays, are involved in Jewish life, and don't believe in God.</p>
<p>The whole Israel debate, I'm just not going to wade hip-deep into, because this is a college forum, but I will say that it's sad to see the issue hijacking liberal/conservative definitions. I'm proud to be both a Democrat and a Jew, and every time I see a Jew decrying the "left", or a liberal screaming that Israel has no right to exist, I cringe a little.</p>
<p>And, back to the original post (anyone remember that? hmm?) - interesting article. I'm Reform, so my outlook is a little different, but I'll check it out.</p>
<p>HueyFreeman is clearly not Jewish. This can be a difficult concept for non-Jews to understand.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There is no one country that Jews are all from, it's a religion, it's not a race.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Historically that's not true. Historically Jews have ancestry in ancient Israel dating back to Roman times. The Diaspora spread us all over the world.</p>
<p>"Jewish" is not a race, it is not an ethnicity, it is not a nationality... but it is also not just a religion. It is really a collection of all of the above united by a common religious background; once the religious background dissapears, this does not mean that the link goes with it.</p>
<p>In the most general sense you are correct, but due to a history of oppression you are not.
[quote]
An "Ashkenazi Jew" from Germany is not a Jewish-German. They are a German who practices the religion of Judaism
[/quote]
This would be true were it not for the fact that Jews had to specifically NOT identify as German. There was a period of time in the history of Germany (late 1800s to early 1900s) where the country had an open enough freedom of religion and friendly to all backgrounds that this may have been true. Where Jews would identify themselves primarily as Germans and then as Jews (similarly to now in the United States where Jews tend to first identify as American). However, in the Holocaust we were categorically denied the right to be "German" and certainly would not want to hold a German identity after such an event.
In Poland and Russia and in other countries where there never was a period of openess (as there was in Germany), Jews were never identified as "Polish" or "Russian." Neither by themselves nor by the Poles and Russians. The oppression experienced in those countries forced Jews, religious and non-religious to maintain an identity seperate from the national identity. This is part of why Jews spoke a seperate language from their host country. This identity that was created is still very prevelent among Ashkenazic Jews in America and is really what tokyorevelation is talking about.</p>
<p>Similar patterns can be found in the North African and Middle Eastern Jewish communities of the Sephardim and Mizrachi.</p>
<p>As such, "Jewish" is not a race, it is not an ethnicity, is not a nationality... but it is not just a religion. It is an identity.</p>
<p>Thank you Just_Browsing for your very detailed explanation. You are much more eloquent than I am. </p>
<p>Good, I think this is settled then. </p>
<p>Now, since before the hijacking this was a good topic, lets restart elsewhere OK?</p>