<p>I have no problem with inter-racial dating. My son’s GF of 3 years isn’t white. Both of my boys have dated girls of other races.</p>
<p>That said, many of the black families in my neighborhood do prefer that their kids date/marry other blacks. That’s one reason some send their kids to historically black colleges and why some want their kids in Black frats/sororities. </p>
<p>Again, I’m surprised that some find that surprising. </p>
<p>There’s a reason why there is a very popular thread in the Parents section about schools for Jewish kids. These parents aren’t racist or anything…they want their kids to have a social life and dating life involving Jewish kids. I’m not surprised by that…even though many Jewish people marry non-Jews. (My Jewish FIL married my Catholic MIL. My Jewish grandmother married my Catholic grandfather.)</p>
<p>If I were of college age (Oh how I wish) I would be very uncomfortable
if I were the only white guy in an all AA Frat. Going to a social function
where all the girls were AA would be even more uncomfortable.
I’m guessing the social pressures on a AA kid would be at least double that.</p>
<p>^^^ Understood, and I don’t think that is really being questioned. Anyone wants to find a partner of like interests, beliefs, goals, culture, etc. However, black, white, jew, asian, christian, muslim … ALL UA students … why should some have the very real opportunity to join a social fraternity, while others have the very real inability to join, when that reason is based solely on race (or religion)? If one of the excuses for that segregation is to avoid the possibility of “intermixing” that is just one of the historical “masks” of the underlying problem.</p>
<p>I have worked in several different types of corporations, think international banking, Wall Street etc. Race has never been an issue, but thirty-odd years ago being female was. Ever been passed over for promotion because you were not male and married?</p>
<p>Prejudices and attitudes take time to change but that does not mean that they can’t be jump-started. College is one of the many life experiences where students will learn about different cultures through day to day interactions or study abroad. By the time these students get to the corporate workplace they will have grown in their world wide view and value system.</p>
<p>It is not fair to compare UA to UCLA, or other schools with low AA enrollment. But first, </p>
<p>I am in a relationship with someone of another race (multiracial Black, Asian, White, etc.) , so I too have no issue with interracial dating. But Momw2collegekids was correct to point out that most people date someone of the same race, which can explain to a large degree the self selection of the Greek system at UA. </p>
<p>I personally believe that a lot of this worry about the Greek system is connected to lingering anxieties about the South’s racial history. I get that, but don’t kid yourselves. The South is much more integrated than the North. There is much more daily interaction of Blacks and Whites here than in any other part of the nation. </p>
<p>Now, back to my point! </p>
<p>Schools like UCLA or Harvard, that have integrated Frat houses, also tend to have very low rates of enrollment for AAs, so the few who are there have no AA Greek house to join. I do think if there were zero AA Greek houses at UA, you would have had at least some integration by now. This is not to say that the White houses could not be more open to diversity, but I don’t think they have AAs beating down their doors for Rush. </p>
<p>Don’t forget, the AA Greek system at UA is VERY strong and they have very highly respected traditions, that are in line with AA culture. Ever heard of a step show? You aren’t likely to get that with a White Greek house.</p>
<p>*Momw2collegekids was correct to point out that most people date someone of the same race, which can explain to a large degree the self selection of the Greek system at UA. *</p>
<p>Exactly…go to any social scene with youngish dating people…the majority of people will be paired up with someone of their own race. That’s not racist…it’s reality. </p>
<p>There have been enough studies that suggest that people are often attracted to people who look like them. That alone is going to influence who many people choose to date. Of course that is not 100%…my H looks NOTHING like me…lol. But, I’ve seen enough couples who do have similar faces to see that this does happen. </p>
<p>I personally believe that a lot of this worry about the Greek system is connected to lingering anxieties about the South’s racial history. I get that, but don’t kid yourselves. The South is much more integrated than the North. There is much more daily interaction of Blacks and Whites here than in any other part of the nation.</p>
<p>I agree 100%.</p>
<p>I do think if there were zero AA Greek houses at UA, you would have had at least some integration by now.</p>
<p>Very true. </p>
<p>* the AA Greek system at UA is VERY strong and they have very highly respected traditions, that are in line with AA culture.*</p>
<p>So, since we’re all in agreement that generally people seek out their own race or religion to date, doesn’t that strengthen the argument for allowing for more integration since there should be no worries regarding dating? :-)</p>
<p>I have no problem with people seeking out people with the same religion to date. I know why many Jewish families want their kids to date Jewish kids…they’ve seen too many mixed marriages where their faith is not included.</p>
<p>Forced integration and quotas aren’t the answer. All that will do is cause resentment, anger, and backlash. </p>
<p>I do think an incentive plan would help though. </p>
<p>The University offers low interest/no interest loans to Fraternities looking to build or remodel their houses. A simple qualification that any house wanting to borrow money from UA needs to be integrated would help get things moving in the right direction.</p>
<p>The University also controls the land and decides who gets to build where when a spot opens up. Again a requirement that a fraternity needs to be integrated to get that new lot would help change some attitudes.</p>
<p>Look at the fraternities just in the last 5 years or so that have built new houses with either financial help through UA or by being awarded a desired lot on Univ blvd. SAE, DKE, ATO, Beta Theta Pi, Sigma Chi, Pi Kappa Alpha just to name a few. Those are some big names in the UA greek system. I gotta believe one of them would have chosen to integrate to get their new house.</p>
<p>All it will take is for one historically strong fraternity on campus to integrate and the rest will fall in line. A university policy based on incentives instead of force or punishment, can make that happen.</p>
<p>Dad, UA is not forbidding integration. They can not force the Frats to integrate, though I suppose they could make it harder for some to rent space at such a cheap rate. I think that would create a collective action dilemma which might force each Frat to accept token AAs as members, and that would not be good. Integration will happen in time, but it can’t be forced. And no official at UA is causing this social segregation to happen. I would like to see it too, but this is really not about UA officials protecting Jim Crow.</p>
<p>^^^ Atl68 … Understood, and I do not think that I implied ANY involvement or responsibility on the University in any of my previous posts, and if I did or it was interpreted that way, I’m sorry. On the contrary, I tried to make the point that nowhere else on campus does such organized segregation exist (dorms, classes, UA sponsored activities, etc.). So I agree with you 100%. My point, coming from my own Greek experience alone, is that the “traditions” embodied by the UA greek system 1) need to change with the increasing diversity; 2) that the historical “protection” of the money & family societal context embodied by these houses that only admit whites from certain geographical locations (all white) are no longer valid and perpetuate lack of diversity; 3) that the “fear factor” of continuing the white only aspects of these houses on the basis of social dating is, in my opinion, abominable … but that’s just my opinion; and 4) Likely no change will come to the Greek system to address this situation until and unless some outside pressure is applied in some manner. The University, to the extent they are providing ANY direct benefit to the houses themselves, is certainly well situated to at bring the issue to the forefront and at least begin a dialogue on the topic. This is NOT just a white/black issue, but as the makeup of the student population changes with it’s recruitment of the best and brightest students, the color spectrum of the population will change along with it. Are NONE of these students going to have access to the Greek system? How much color is too much color for these houses … Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, Indian, African American? Listen, my daughter LOVES UA without question, and we made a great decision sending her there. And she is not going Greek. But harkening back to the decision at the beginning of this post, where the young man somehow was blackballed if the reason was in fact that he supported racial integration, is truly sad. Good for him for sticking up for his morals!</p>
<p>*Look at the fraternities just in the last 5 years or so that have built new houses with either financial help through UA or by being awarded a desired lot on Univ blvd. SAE, DKE, ATO, Beta Theta Pi, Sigma Chi, Pi Kappa Alpha just to name a few. Those are some big names in the UA greek system. I gotta believe one of them would have chosen to integrate to get their new house.</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>Exactly…those who will cooperate with a new policy will benefit with in-kind and financial benefits…like cheap rent and preferential locations. </p>
<p>While many AA kids are still going to want to go to AA Houses…especially those who went to largely AA high schools or AA prep schools…there are some AA kids who went to largely white schools who would feel comfortable in an integrated House…especially if they were raised in a mixed race household. That would be the beginning. </p>
<p>Every largely white high school and prep school has some AA kids…start the recruitment there. While these numbers aren’t huge, there are these kids…often children of military officers (which are plentiful in Alabama) and children from mixed race homes. </p>
<p>It’s ok if the initial 10 or so kids per house were somehow considered to be “tokens” by those who want to be derisive…who cares…that’s how these things start. Of course, there would have to be a couple people per house who have been selected to make sure that those AA kids would not be subject to any kind of excessive pledge demands by some active who is against the new policy and is trying to make them de-pledge.</p>
<p>Just to clarify myself, I am in no way condoning any sort of segregation within the UA Greek system. However, there are some things that people should think about before solely condemning the Greeks. </p>
<p>First off, you cannot integrate any organization or system if there are not enough people from other races, religions, whatever who are interested in joining. Looking just at the sororities, over the last few years chapter sizes and the number of girls rushing have grown exponentially. However, in any given year maybe only a handful of AA or other minority girls rushed. How can a system be integrated if < .5% of the participants are minorities?</p>
<p>So why don’t more go through rush? It is impossible to know how many might have been interested, yet chose not to because they didn’t believe they would receive a bid. Obviously that perception problem can only be changed if more rush & pledge. Bit of a vicious circle, isn’t it?</p>
<p>There is more to it though. NPHC orgs (the historically AA Greek orgs, aka the Divine Nine) are incredibly strong, not just locally but nationally as well. They have alum networking that NPC/IFC can only dream about. In addition, there are exceptionally strong family traditions amongst NPHC Greeks. What often happens is the best and brightest who want to be Greek are only interested in these groups.</p>
<p>Something else to keep in mind, sometimes AA’s can be pressured by other AA’s not to participate in the NPC/IFC Greek system. (Annecdotal proof only.) Accusations of selling out can get thrown around. That’s a lot of pressure for any young person to withstand.</p>
<p>My point is a lot of attitudes, perceptions, and behaviors will need to change before the UA NPC/IFC Greek system can be fully integrated – and not just on the part of the Greeks.</p>
<p>I think Calantha is exactly right. There just aren’t enough numbers for there to truly be a need for the university to step in and force/offer incentives for diversity. Yeah it sucks if someone is denied the chance to pledge because of his or her race but until enough people are denied and bring it to light then it will continue to happen. The thing about fraternities is that they do have the ‘right’ to be exclusive. That’s why they are fraternities. They just don’t let anyone in. It would be hard to prove if someone is denied for any reason, regardless of race as well.</p>
<p>A public, tax payer supported, state college is supporting (financially and otherwise) a club/group/entity that openly discriminates based on race. Tacit approval is still approval. </p>
<p>When the incident last year happened when someone leaning out of a frat window yelled racial epithets at a passing student, Dr. Witt sent a very strong and forceful denunciation of racism and verbal abuse in a letter to (I think) all students. That was strong leadership in the right direction. I suspect that Dr. Witt and other campus leaders have their hearts in the right place on this issue but that doesn’t make them immune to either not noticing or not taking action on this large scale and long lasting remnant of discrimination left over from the past. I would think that at the very least they would use their position in the school to push things in the right direction. I would also think that university (ie. taxpayer) money should not be used to support any group that discriminates based on criteria that are protected against discrimination under the Constitution of the US. It happens in many ways all over the country, but since we’re talking about frats here…there are frats in the country that have successfully integrated and frats that have stayed completely segregated, but it’s not all that important whether or not “it happens elsewhere.” UA is a leader in a lot of ways - it would be nice if this were one of them.</p>
<p>^^^ prophet … Wow … is, someone willing to post the number of non-AA, non-white members at any or all the fraternities and sororities on UA campus? Does that information even exist? Having some experience with National Chapters since I re-chartered a house myself and was on Exec Board, and helped author our Constitution (even if it was 25 years ago), I can bet that no National Chapter would have a policy in place excluding minorities of any kind, so those policies are NOT within the core principles of the organization nationally. Period. As for the numerical figure not being high enough to justify the effort, well, that’s just fooey! I law school, they teach the principle of the “slippery slope” … if we allow it to happen even ONCE, we’ll be setting the precedent to allow it to happen in mass. Someone please answer me 1 … just 1 … valid reason for NOT admitting even 1 person of color (AA or not) into an organization if in all respects the young man or young lady is an upstanding, fine, respectful student with the grades and the personality and desire to join but his or her ONLY difference is that she happens to be a different color? I dare anyone to find one reason that is NOT seated in some tradition based on outdated notions of “who is better” to associate with. Period. I promise not to post on this thread even one more time, but the whole premise is unjustifiable at its base. So, sad really. This time, I am truly out as I think I’ve made my point clear. There ARE those “entities” that could provide the impetus to at least begin the dialogue for change, but first there has to be a desire to do so. Tradition is NOT a good enough answer.</p>
<p>Dad2ILD - I agree. Please continue to post too. We all enjoy these discussions. I’m speaking from my purely informal experience at UA as a student, before and after I became Greek. I was just saying that there are so few black students that attempt to pledge a white organization that it won’t garner enough attention from officials. That won’t happen until 1,2,10,15, (just making up numbers) students all come with their grievance. </p>
<p>That incident that occurred with one of the fraternities yelling racial epithets was extremely blatant, while as denying someone because of their race is almost behind the scenes.</p>
<p>The good thing is that there are some newer white fraternities that more readily accept non white members, plus there are a handful of explicit multicultural fraternities and sororities (they actually officially advertise themselves as such). There are plenty of fraternities to fit any interested member. Again, if a certain org (white or black) doesn’t want certain races, as an individual I would not even want to seek membership into that group.</p>