Grinnell (1600 undergrads) vs. UW-Madison (30000 undergrads)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hello all!</p>

<p>It is, as you may know, decision making time. Currently, I'm deciding between the University of Wisconsin-Madison and Grinnell College. I'm guessing many of you may suggest to go with whatever school seems to fit more, but I do not feel like I fit one more than the other.</p>

<p>I loved Madison when I visited, but I do I think that I'd enjoy Grinnell more. Originally, my dream school was Swarthmore College. It was a small school with a tightly knit community and an intellectual, academically-focused attitude. It had incredibly strong academics with close interaction with professors--all perfect for graduate school. However after being accepted ED, Swarthmore didn't work out financially. And, considering all of this, Grinnell seems to be the next best option. </p>

<p>However, I have three main hesitations:</p>

<p>1) I'm worried that Grinnell doesn't have the same recognition that Madison or Swarthmore would have. I plan to go to graduate school soon after undergrad, and I think Grinnell would sufficiently prepare me for this (my dream is to become an econ professor, but that's a long ways off), but I want to potentially get a decent job after graduation if I didn't go to graduate school. I may be wrong in thinking this, though. </p>

<p>2) Also, Grinnell is so small that I'm worried that it wouldn't have the same resources that a school like Madison would have. For example, Grinnell may not have as many research opportunities; Grinnell does not have a huge variety of classes and definitely doesn't have graduate level courses; and Grinnell does not have the same exciting city that Madison does. I may be very wrong on some of these assumptions, but this is just what I'm thinking so far . </p>

<p>3) Lastly, Madison (~$28k) should be about $4-5k cheaper than Grinnell ($32k after including a $21k merit package. And Madison seems to be much more generous with giving credit to AP scores. </p>

<p>What do you guys think?</p>

2

<p>You may want to compare the course listings for economics, math, and statistics at Grinnell and Wisconsin if you find that possible limitations to be a concern.</p>

<p>If you want to go to an economics PhD program, you should consider taking math courses including multivariable calculus, differential equations, real analysis, and linear algebra, and upper division calculus-based probability and statistics.</p>

<p>How much debt would each option require you to take on?</p>

3

<p>If Swarthmore was your dream school, then Grinnell is the closest match. In my opinion, you have your whole life to live in interesting cities, but only one shot at the experience a Grinnell or Swarthmore provides. This small, close-knit campus-centric community is not easily replicated in the real world. </p>

<p>Grinnell’s reputation in the graduate world is as good as any other school out there and it has a Career Development office that gives its students personal attention, as well as funding for summer internships. </p>

<p>Grinnell is hugely supportive of student research, and you will be working directly with the professors, not graduate students who work as Teaching Assistants, at all times, and there will be no competition with grad students to be involved in research. Are you aware of Grinnell’s Mentored Advanced Program?
[Mentored</a> Advanced Projects - Academic Affairs and Dean of the College | Grinnell College](<a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/dean/map]Mentored”>http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/dean/map)</p>

<p>Unless you are using AP credits to try to graduate early, I’m not sure what the concern is about applying them – if you are as academically minded as you suggest, then I would think you’d want to take as many different courses in college as you can. Use these four years to explore subjects and benefit from the full potential a liberal arts education can provide!</p>

<p>Another consideration to Grinnell is that virtually everything on campus is free to students: speakers, movies, concerts, parties, etc. Having fun in an urban setting requires spending money. I imagine that Ann Arbor has places with prices geared to student budgets, but really, spending money is not too necessary at Grinnell, mainly if you want to go out to eat in town.</p>

<p>Transportation costs, though, are something you might want to factor in. </p>

<p>If you are interested in politics, in a few years, you might have the opportunity to meet the next President of the United States, as the candidates will start coming through in advance of the iowa caucuses!</p>

<p>When it comes to the total cost of attendance, that is a decision you and your family will have to make in the context of your overall financial picture. My points above are trying to help you understand the benefits, as I personally see them, of attending Grinnell.</p>

4

<p>Adding to SDonCC’s point about AP credits, these can be useful to get out of core or distribution requirements common at most large state u’s - but since Grinnell does not have distribution requirements, you don’t need AP credit to be free to take any courses you’d like from the start (if you have the prerequisites). Also, while UW is better known nationally, grad schools really do know Grinnell and respect it tremendously.</p>

5

<p>Both schools are outstanding examples of their (very separate) types. Your decision should come down to the kind of environment you want. Many people would feel stifled at Grinnell; many others would be overwhelmed by Madison.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This is, of course, true, but opportunities without context are meaningless. The question should be: are you, personally, going to value the greater array and variety of opportunities at a large state university? or will they be of no use to you because you are only interested in a small subset of them? Not everyone wants to live in a metropolis, even though it offers the most opportunities in a theoretical sense. Where are you, personally, more likely to thrive, given your interests and temperament?</p>

6

<p>Apple, are you saying that I would not benefit at all from AP credits at Grinnell? While I believe I am academically minded, I also consider myself financially conscious. I’ve taken around 10 AP classes and I don’t want to let these go to waste. </p>

<p>While Grinnell is admired and respected by graduate schools, as one poster asked earlier, does it offer enough math credits to be sufficiently prepared? In my original post, I also expressed concern about being able to do things beyond just graduate school with a degree from Grinnell.</p>

7

<p>ucbalumnus, does this look sufficient for grad school?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/mathstats/mathcourses[/url]”>http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/mathstats/mathcourses&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Sent from my DROID RAZR using CC</p>

8

<p>Wow, my son was in a similar position last year, and is now a freshman at UW. Well, technically, he was not really deciding between Grinnell and UW because once he visited UW, he was in love and, while Grinnell was his favorite of the LACs, including Oberlin and Kenyon, he didn’t look back.</p>

<p>A few thoughts as a parent. </p>

<p>UW does have incredible resources and opportunities – the US News rankings (not that I rely on these for academic departments, but it has some resonance in the general population) puts UW Econ at 13th. The breadth and depth of course offerings that you will have in a major research department will exceed the offerings at a LAC. Grinnell is special in that it does have significant funding for undergrad research. On balance, as a parent (and both my husband and I attended LACs and are biased in that direction), the opportunities at UW are likely to be stronger. While your career plans may likely change more than once, a significant factor in grad school admission (my husband is a humanities faculty member at a top 20 university) is faculty recommendations and how well-regarded the recommender is by the target department. More renowned faculty makes a stronger app. Of course, Grinnell has a very strong track record with grad schools and, while not quite as well known back east as UW, it is highly respected by people who know quality. </p>

<p>UW does have gen ed and distribution requirements, unlike Grinnell. APs and other testing will get you out of some, but not all. If you have taken 4 years of a single foreign language in high school, that meets your foreign language requirement. As an Econ person, you will easily meet your Quant Reasoning A and B requirements, though you still need 12 credits each of Sciences, Humanities and Social Science, plus Communication A and B. My son is in his second semester and has already met his Humanities and SS requirements through classes and testing, though he has to be strategic about how to meet the Sciences and Quant Reasoning requirements, including looking at some local science classes to get them out of the way, cheaply. Personally, if I were 18, the chance never to take math again would have been enough for me to go to Grinnell. </p>

<p>He overnighted at Grinnell and liked the open, non-judgmental feeling (also, liked the party atmosphere – was offered plenty of weed). UW is a whole different scale – from football weekends, to 1000 person dorms. It is not the intimate world of self-gov at Grinnell. You can create the smaller environment by living in Residential community within the dorms, participating in students organizations based on your interest. </p>

<p>The challenge at a place like UW is to be self-motivated enough to take advantage of what there is – it requires more maturity and direction, I think (which is why we thought our son would do better in a smaller environment where there was more immediate support and direction). There is always something going on at UW and in Madison, but a student does have to get up and go. </p>

<p>I agree with above posters who say that, if Swat was your dream school, then Grinnell is a similar environment (just not in suburban Philly). You can’t go wrong with either school. You have 6 weeks to decide – can you get back for a visit to each? Go to an admitted student day at UW – sitting in a room of 600 (250+ kids plus parents/families) may help you decide if that sized environment works for you. </p>

<p>I could go on and on, but they are great opportunities. Good luck with your decision.</p>

9

<p>Here is the information on credit awarded for AP at Grinnell:<br>
[Advanced</a> Placement - Registrar | Grinnell College](<a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/registrar/additionalinfo/advancedplacement]Advanced”>http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/registrar/additionalinfo/advancedplacement)</p>

<p>If you have any further questions or don’t understand, I strongly recommend that you ask the school directly rather than relying on us as second-hand internet people!</p>

<p>Also, ask Grinnell directly about any questions you have in terms of grad school preparedness. So many of its students go on to grad school, I’d be shocked if you weren’t ready or had troubles being admitted. Why don’t you also contact the head of the Econ department at Grinnell? His email is right on the department website.</p>

<p>Don’t be afraid to ask questions directly of the schools. These colleges want to enroll students who are eager to be on campus and want them to succeed while they are there, both in terms of their campus experience and their post-grad options. It’s not to the schools’ advantage to have a student want to transfer (although there’s no crystal ball here, so even with the best research you do, you won’t really know until you get there whether you are happy or not…)</p>

10

<p>Did you even bother to appeal your financial aid decision? </p>

<p>Swarthmore is possibly the ideal undergraduate school, with respect to both reputation and academics, and you’re turning it down to consider third-rate state universities and liberal arts colleges?</p>

<p>Think about it.</p>

<p>Otherwise, save your money, and go to Wisconsin, Madison.</p>

11

<p>Wow! Thank you very very much! That post has a lot to think about. I toured UW Madison about a year ago and I really did like the feel. However, I’ve done a lot of maturing I think and I may have shifted towards the intimacy of a small school. </p>

<p>I plan to visit both in April!</p>

<p>Sent from my DROID RAZR using CC</p>

12

<p>kwu, thank you for your input. I should hope you would realize that I did, indeed, attempt to appeal. They were adamant that they would not give any need based aid. It was a very long and frustrating process.</p>

13

<p>Don, thanks for the link. I was asking you some questions because you posed some opinions that I hasn’t heard of before, so I wanted some elaboration mostly. But do know that I plan on asking Grinnell a lot of questions! </p>

<p>I am mostly looking for subjective information from people like Midwestmom that had experiences similar to mine.</p>

14

<p>Another consideration, implicit in some of the above comments, is to really reflect on what size student environment suits you. I suspect if you found Swat ideal, then Grinnell is your better choice. </p>

<p>My son found the smaller size of the LACs stifling – he loved the notion of a moving buffet of new people, with literally thousands of freshman.</p>

<p>You may have the exact opposite response – it is very personal. Try to get back on campus, to both schools. They each are really wonderful places, just different.</p>

15

<p>My son is between small LACs and a huge university.</p>

<p>This is what we did:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Look at the class size for YOUR major (not the average) in both first year and third year (by 3rd year weeding out is done)</p></li>
<li><p>Look at the lab equipment and other “hard” items between both schools. Some top LACs (and I count Grinnell as top) have the same equipment available for undergraduates. Some big Unis have awesome equipment that even the UG research assistants can’t touch. </p></li>
<li><p>Will you be studying abroad? Look at each schools costs for that - including what of your FA package follows you.</p></li>
<li><p>Look at housing options and costs. Grinnell you will likely be on campus all 4 years - great if you don’t want to hassle with a short commute or rent agreements. Horrible if you are sick of the food and living on top of other students.</p></li>
<li><p>I live in the Philly area. I consider Grinnell VERY highly respected in academics and I don’t see it as clearly very ahead of Swat.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My son has decided w/o looking at finances, out of 12 schools, the only Big U he applied to beats out 9 of the other schools. The big U was a safety he didn’t really think about actually attending when he applied. It is now a probable choice after throwing finances into the mix.</p>

<p>Take your time in making the decision. You have another 6 weeks.</p>

16

<p>Great point, Midwestmom! I think I would prefer the smallness attractive, but I was just worried that Madison would be a cheaper alternative with potentially more resources and a better chances at landing a decent job before grad school.</p>

17

<p>My S did have certain interests which had much wider offerings at a university – including a potential major which is not offered at Grinnell (or most LACs) – but decided that student body fit was most important to him.</p>

<p>As luck would have it, certain of his interests (both academic and extra-curricular) have been expanded since he enrolled at Grinnell, although the offerings still don’t compare to a university.</p>

<p>But, my S loves to learn about so many different things that the number of choices at a university would actually been overwhelming for him. There is plenty for him to choose from at Grinnell to keep a wide-ranging intellectual curiousity satisfied, and whether through official course offerings or individual initiative (self-learning, independent major or study, etc.), enough depth where he needs it.</p>

18

<p>

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<p>Since when did Wisconsin and Grinnell become “third rate”?</p>

<p>Re: Grinnell’s math course list</p>

<p>It looks like just enough for preparing for economics PhD programs, though you may want to consider whether Wisconsin has additional math courses that may be of interest (e.g. second course in analysis, mathematical economics, advanced linear algebra).</p>

<p>Also consider the schools’ offerings in various fields of economics where current research is being done (e.g. behavioral economics, game theory, identity economics, etc.), so that you can sample them to see what you may be interested in studying as a PhD student.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, Grinnell is too isolated to have a convenient cross registration agreement with a nearby research university, which can allow a student at a LAC to break through the limitations of its advanced course offerings.</p>

19

<p>Isaiah, I know you put in some more apps besides those when Swat fell through. Do you have some more options that may come through for you in the RD acceptances over the next few weeks?</p>

20

<p>intparent, ah! You remember! I was planning on posting in that Financial Aid thread once I figured out what I would be doing. I applied to the following:</p>

<p>UMinn-TC–accepted, scholarship pending, probably wouldn’t attend unless I got some sort of hefty scholarship but I missed the priority scholarship deadline so I doubt I’ll get anything
Case Western Reserve University–accepted, $23k/yr, nothing really draws me to this school much, and for relatively the same price, I would much prefer attending Grinnell
Grinnell–accepted, like I said earlier, with $21k/yr
Carleton–pending, but offers no merit aid
Kenyon–pending, but I missed the merit aid deadline, and I think I would choose Grinnell anyway</p>

<p>ucbalumnus, thank yo very much for your I’m guessing that Wisconsin would have basically any “additional math course” that I could wish. </p>

<p>That’s a very good point to make about the varying econ courses to choose from. [Economics</a> Curriculum - Economics | Grinnell College](<a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/economics/aboutmajor/economicscurriculum]Economics”>http://www.grinnell.edu/academic/economics/aboutmajor/economicscurriculum) shows that there’s about 20 different econ courses throughout the year, and while there may be additional courses offered year by year, but that doesn’t seem like all that much. Maybe I’m wrong–honestly I have no idea how many different courses would be desirable–maybe past/current college student could touch on this?</p>

<p>Actually, [Department</a> of Economics | University of Wisconsin - Madison](<a href=“http://www.econ.wisc.edu/undergrad/courses.html]Department”>http://www.econ.wisc.edu/undergrad/courses.html) shows that there’s about 20 undergraduate courses offered at UW Madison in one particular semester. Why don’t they have many more than Grinnell? I suppose I may have the option to take graduate courses after the first few years. How common is it for relatively motivated, future-graduate school, undergrad students to take graduate courses?</p>